Earliest expansion vs. earliest wonders

[Willem]

Originally posted by Krill
Pyramids costs so much it should be ignored unless you are industrious or have stone, and even then depends on surounding terrain and if you have something to rush (killing an AI early on is better than the pyramids, if you know how to leverage the extra land).

I just tried to build the Pyramids in a Noble game since I had a nearby source of Stone and I still lost out. Which is not the first time that's happened. So from now on I won't even think about it unless I have Stone and I'm Industrious. It's just too much production to lose out on early in the game.

[wodan11]

How much cash did you get?

Wodan

[Vampgelus]

If you were IND, had stone, and still didn't get it, your starting location must have been awfull. Or you really suck

[Willem]

Originally posted by wodan11
How much cash did you get?

Wodan

I didn't notice. I was so disgusted that I just quit and started a new game. Nothing worse than wasting that much production so early. I don't mind losing out later in the game, but I could have made several Settlers with all those Hammers.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Vampgelus
If you were IND, had stone, and still didn't get it, your starting location must have been awfull. Or you really suck

Well that's the thing, I wasn't Industrious, I only had Stone. So it was probably some Industrious civ who also had Stone that beat me to it. I only had something like 20 turns to go. Though of course it's always possible that someone pops a Great Engineer and builds it that way. Or at least greatly reduces the cost.

[Diadem]

With stone I'd always go for the pyramids, if only because of the huge cash bonus you get if you loose. With 100% production bonus that's more cash per hammer than building wealth yields. A lot earlier.

[martin mcmartin]

hi Vamp,

IMO what you want is very difficult. the only way to achieve this is by playing aggressive. the map and AI location is critical. don't make settlers, you just need a strong UU in the early game and 2 AI capitals in the vicinity. crank out workers and UU's (vulure? is Gargamel IMP?) bronze working/Iron are a must to get out the units. rush the AI capitals and use them to build your wonders. speed is key, luck too, I have almost done it once on emperor level. I got bronze working in a hut, playing Gilgamesh, with ghandi and montezuma next door. did not build stonehenge myself, Ghandi did that for me. and I lost the pyramids to an AI on teh other half of the map. settings medium and small, 9 civs, large, marathon, emperor. on deity this is out of the question. you are lucky to get the Oracle....

I just thought of one other option: Ghandi or Asoka on islands map. no defence needed, just enough wood to chop. if you have enough fish and a few specials with hammers, you can research the techs needed, the workers with their double speed can do the job to get most wonders.

Mc

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Willem


I didn't notice. I was so disgusted that I just quit and started a new game. Nothing worse than wasting that much production so early. I don't mind losing out later in the game, but I could have made several Settlers with all those Hammers.

It's not a total waste like you make it out to be. With stone, you get free hammers. The cash you get converts that to gold. Which will allow you to run your sliders at deficit spending and thus get faster research for quite some time. Say you got 300 free hammers... that's like getting 2 free early techs!

Wodan

[Krill]

That's a weird definition of free...

[Willem]

Originally posted by wodan11
Which will allow you to run your sliders at deficit spending and thus get faster research for quite some time.

I don't run my sliders into the red. I'd rather have a healthy surplus that I can use for either upgrading my units or conducting espionage missions. So having a ton of cash that early wasn't going to be of any benefit to me since I couldn't do either one at the time. It was just money in the bank.

[Vampgelus]

What's the link between money in the bank and running spy missions ?

[snoopy369]

Nothing, since spy missions don't take money, unless you're not playing BtS...

[Willem]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Nothing, since spy missions don't take money, unless you're not playing BtS...

What are you talking about? Don't you have to spend gold in order to do things like steal techs, poison water supplies etc.? That's always been my presumption.

[Virulent]

Originally posted by Willem


What are you talking about? Don't you have to spend gold in order to do things like steal techs, poison water supplies etc.? That's always been my presumption.

You spend EP which is something you can convert your commerce to, similar to beakers and culture. So you are not quite spending gold.

Pre-BtS you spent actual surplus gold on the handful of (near-useless) espionage missions available.