Apostolic Palace?

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Bkeela
At this moment I'm feeling so bitter towards the designers of Beyond the Sword.

I'm now in my third game. This time I don't have the Apostolic Palace. I'm Napoleon, inexplicably stripped of my aggressive trait, and battling to survive wave after wave of Stacks of Death from the bloody Khmer again (I'm starting to hate those bastards).

Previously, Stalin, the most powerful nation - mercifully on the other side of a continent from me, went to war against the Greeks - and on the very same turn - THE VERY SAME TURN - the Apostolic Palace vote was raised to stop the war. It succeeded.

Meanwhile, the Khmer go to war against me - a nation of the same religion as theirs - the religion of the Palace, and the silence is deafening. Wave after wave my defending city must endure. I was trying to scrape together the foundation for a cultural victory, but that of course had to be postponed as every city I owned pumped out newly acquired Musketeers.

I check my other neighbour, the Koreans, who are so ridiculously ahead in technology I almost lose heart and quit the game, and am astonished to find they will agree to war against the Khymer for Liberalism (the only tech they don't have for some strange reason).

Guess what? First turn after the Koreans declare war...the Apostolic Palace raises a vote to stop the war. I save and quit in disgust and come straight here to vent. I'm not looking forward to resuming the game.

By the way, I stopped playing with the AP many games ago. Much too infuriating for the reasons you describe. Sucks to lose the option for a diplo victory, though.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Bkeela
At this moment I'm feeling so bitter towards the designers of Beyond the Sword.

I'm now in my third game. This time I don't have the Apostolic Palace. I'm Napoleon, inexplicably stripped of my aggressive trait, and battling to survive wave after wave of Stacks of Death from the bloody Khmer again (I'm starting to hate those bastards).

Previously, Stalin, the most powerful nation - mercifully on the other side of a continent from me, went to war against the Greeks - and on the very same turn - THE VERY SAME TURN - the Apostolic Palace vote was raised to stop the war. It succeeded.

Meanwhile, the Khmer go to war against me - a nation of the same religion as theirs - the religion of the Palace, and the silence is deafening. Wave after wave my defending city must endure. I was trying to scrape together the foundation for a cultural victory, but that of course had to be postponed as every city I owned pumped out newly acquired Musketeers.

I check my other neighbour, the Koreans, who are so ridiculously ahead in technology I almost lose heart and quit the game, and am astonished to find they will agree to war against the Khymer for Liberalism (the only tech they don't have for some strange reason).

Guess what? First turn after the Koreans declare war...the Apostolic Palace raises a vote to stop the war. I save and quit in disgust and come straight here to vent. I'm not looking forward to resuming the game.

AP
designers of BtS

However, I think charismatic is actually a better trait than aggressive, so Napoleon got a step up, not down.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by NFIH


I think he meant he thought he'd be able to stick it to the Khmer with the Koreans joining in to fight them. But then that ,too, got squashed.

In which case, all he had to do was vote NEVER.

Wodan

[wodan11]

BTW, I don't have a huge problem with the AP, though I certainly agree the voting could have been engineered better. The posts here are just the tip of the iceberg. Still, with some minor tweaking (if Firaxis bothered) it could be easily fixed.

I DO, however, have a major issue with the UN. The way it forces certain civics is poor game design, IMO.

Wodan

[Bkeela]

Originally posted by wodan11

What's the problem? I thought you WANTED the war to be stopped.

Wodan

The vote was to stop the war between the Khmer and the Koreans - NOT myself and the Khmer. You see, I had given the Koreans Liberalism to declare war, but that could be undone if the vote goes to stop the war.

I would feel like cheating if I turned off the diplomatic victory. I suppose I'll get use to the unfairness of it, just as I have with vassalage and the way nations I'm just about to finish off capitulate to another power, plunging me into even more war when my nation is already war weary. If it wasn't for the updated graphics and unique appearance of units, I'd consider going back to Warlords.

I haven't even whined about spying, and the uncanny way that random events hurt you when you are most vulnerable.

Anyway, I'm off to see which way the vote goes.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Bkeela


The vote was to stop the war between the Khmer and the Koreans - NOT myself and the Khmer. You see, I had given the Koreans Liberalism to declare war, but that could be undone if the vote goes to stop the war.

Then you should vote NEVER.

Wodan

[Seedle]

Originally posted by wodan11

Then you should vote NEVER.

Wodan

He can't vote never, the vote was to stop the war against the Koreans, and he wasn't at war with them. Stopping the war against the Koreans just means the Koreans leave the war, he's given away Liberalism for no benefit, and the Khmer continue to attack him.

[Yaga]

I would love to have both the UN and the AP work differently. Specifically:
- Owning the AP or UN doubles the point value for elections only.
- Proposals are available at any time
- One maintains their tenure as resident/sec' general until one of the proposed is defeated, or
- No proposal is made for 20 turns
- New Elections held immediately after either of the above

[wodan11]

- Civic proposals can be for ANY civic

[Yaga]

Originally posted by Yaga
I would love to have both the UN and the AP work differently. Specifically:
- Owning the AP or UN doubles the point value for elections only.
- Proposals are available at any time
- One maintains their tenure as resident/sec' general until one of the proposed is defeated, or
- No proposal is made for 20 turns
- New Elections held immediately after either of the above

Also, relations between the resident of the AP/UN and the owner of the AP should be set to *at least* pleased. After all -- if the AP/UN is in my city (my capitol city, even) and you're sending the head of your church into my care, then you had better be playing nice, unless you want some "accident" to befall them. On the flip side -- the AP/UN resident should get an EP bonus, if not for all the cities in which the religion is present, then at least to the civ which has the AP/UN.

[Kc7mxo]

Also, relations between the resident of the AP/UN and the owner of the AP should be set to *at least* pleased. After all -- if the AP/UN is in my city (my capitol city, even) and you're sending the head of your church into my care, then you had better be playing nice, unless you want some "accident" to befall them. On the flip side -- the AP/UN resident should get an EP bonus, if not for all the cities in which the religion is present, then at least to the civ which has the AP/UN.

Doesn't always work that way, consider the history of the Papacy. Just beacuse it was in italy didn't mean the italians controlled it. A more accurate portrayal would have it as an entirely seperate entity who you could negotiate with, but not directly control.


For those who think the AP isn't working correctly, it needs the following:

First, it only effects nations that have the religion.

If everyone has it, you'll never get the "stop trading" option, or the "crusade against the unbelievers". But this is also the only time you'll get the option for AP victory.

If noone but you has your religion, the AP does nothing except offer a bonus to hammers and annoy you with a one sided election every dozen or so turns.

If not all the members of the religion have open borders, it'll give the option to declare open borders.

If some of the members are at war with each other, it'll offer to declare peace. If someone has taken a city from the other (this might also require the city to have the religion, not sure), you'll sometimes get the option to return the city to its owner.

Those are the major uses of the AP. Its an interesting addition to the game, but doesn't always have a significant effect. It can be completly nullified if an isolationist AI like tokugawa builds it, or the religious minority. I belive it also stops being of use if you go into free religion.