Help with my early game warring (LONG!)

[Seedle]

Re: Help with my early game warring (LONG!)

Originally posted by NFIH
I currently play Noble, normal speed

That's your problem right there. Play marathon.

I open by building three cities, four if space is readily available.

I recommend 2 for a war chariot rush, 3 for axe. 4 is too many for a rush. However, if you have 4 just insane city sites (it happens) that you can settle peacefully, then settle them and just go for a later war with cats.

The third city builds barracks=>archer=>5 axemen.

I wouldn't recommend even researching archery unless you don't have copper, much less building archers. The hammers that went to the archers could go to axemen, war chariots, etc. I do usually build a barracks for an axe rush (but not a chariot rush, speed is ultra-important for those) but most of the good players here say don't, and I play marathon, so that may have something to do with the viability of the barracks.

I research Iron Working to prep for swords. Then head straight to Code of Laws to get courthouses to cut maintenance costs on my (hopefully) soon to be expanded empire.

Code of laws is good. Iron Working isn't that important to get early unless you are Rome, maybe Celtia, or in the middle of a jungle. Swordsman generally aren't worth the beakers and the shields.

All new offensive units except the initial archers are routed to the frontline city. I usually have something like 8-10 axemen (with several more still en route to the front but too far behind to take part in my first assault) by this time and *maybe* a few spears and extra archers I can bring along to garrison newly taken cities.

If your early enough, axes alone can be okay, but I tend to worry more about the AI have chariots to counter an axe rush than the AI having spears to counter a chariot rush. So having a few spears mixed in is good, imo. If you chariot rush early enough, on the other hand, the AI, at least on noble, just can't research BW, hook it up, and build a significant amount of spears by the time you have 3-4 units at their cities. Of course, all this comes from a marathon player, so your mileage on normal may vary.

If I can spare the workers and time, I road from my frontline city to the border of the target AI.

Seems to me that these workers would be better used chopping, and the units guarding them could be attacking cities or getting experience hunting barbs, but I could be wrong.

3. I am in enemy territory with a large force in the early game and, due to maintenance costs, am losing money quite fast. But since it's early I don't have an economy capable of sustaining this cost for more than a few turns.

Don't be afraid to lower your science slider, use specialists to tech if need be, and hope the money you get from conquest can keep you afloat.
Also, you mentioned that you bring your initial explorer back to escort your early settler. This may be part of your problem. Have that explorer pop huts for gold and that will keep your economy going when you are in the red.

need for *some* units to stay in the captured city as a garrison.

How many units are you using to garrison the conquered cities? I generally use one or even just let it build a defender, depending on how early it is and how worried about barbs I am. If you are garrisoning with more troops than that, that could be part of the problem.

6. I'm obliged to lower my science down to zero or close to it as a result of losing money. (I do set science specialists in libraries to try and counter this.) So even if I win a few cities, I'm so far behind on tech that other AIs are already up to longbows and macemen before I can get my second wind, so to speak.

Let 'em get medieval units before you. With the extra territory you got in your early wars, you can beat them to infantry, and that's what counts. Also, do your best to preferably capture or at least found a holy city and get the shrine going, that is huge for paying upkeep costs.

Is the problem that I'm playing on Normal speed and the window for action is simply too small?

I say yes, but others would probably say it's just a matter of knowing how to do it, rather than using marathon as a crutch.

[Tuberski]

No one mentioned that he should build cottages?

ACK!

[Arrian]

I was focusing on explaining a proper chariot rush, but yeah, cottages are useful and stuff.

-Arrian

[Krill]

[q=Seedle]I say yes, but others would probably say it's just a matter of knowing how to do it, rather than using marathon as a crutch.[/q]

You'd be right as well...

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by NFIH


Tried that. Unfortunately (and this assumes horses pop somewhere inside my borders, which certainly isn't always the case), it doesn't work because chariots are hopelessly outclassed by even a single spear. It's almost sad watching five or six chariots die to a lone spear in a city. They're good for raiding and as part of a mixed force, but otherwise, no-go.

War chariots handle spears fine... one chariot dies, one spearman dies, on average. (Of course this varies based on the city defense %, on a hill, etc., but in my past experience spearmen don't effectively counter war chariots).

Further, you take advantage of the 2 moves, and pillage their copper. Even if they built a city on the copper, just pillage its roads... this only fails to work when the capital is built on copper, or the copper is on the river pathway to the capital - neither of which happen all that frequently. Pillage the copper, and you have only archers to fight

[NFIH]

Re: Re: Help with my early game warring (LONG!)

Originally posted by Seedle
I wouldn't recommend even researching archery unless you don't have copper, much less building archers. The hammers that went to the archers could go to axemen, war chariots, etc. I do usually build a barracks for an axe rush (but not a chariot rush, speed is ultra-important for those) but most of the good players here say don't, and I play marathon, so that may have something to do with the viability of the barracks.

Need the archers as there are barbs running around.

Code of laws is good. Iron Working isn't that important to get early unless you are Rome, maybe Celtia, or in the middle of a jungle. Swordsman generally aren't worth the beakers and the shields.

Yup, there's lots of jungle.

Seems to me that these workers would be better used chopping, and the units guarding them could be attacking cities or getting experience hunting barbs, but I could be wrong.

I should clarify: I mean roading within my borders as close as possible to the enemy border without actually going into unclaimed territory. So three or four tiles max.

How many units are you using to garrison the conquered cities? I generally use one or even just let it build a defender, depending on how early it is and how worried about barbs I am. If you are garrisoning with more troops than that, that could be part of the problem.

As you say, I only garrison based on threat level. Sometimes one (early game, that's pretty much all it can be) and sometimes more.

Let 'em get medieval units before you. With the extra territory you got in your early wars, you can beat them to infantry, and that's what counts.

Hmm, this is interesting to note. I always lose a lot of heart when I see neighbours tech to macemen/longbows, etc., before me. I'll try to steel myself more.

[egavactip]

You don't need archers if you are in a rush, you can use warriors to defend your cities until you get copper and then you can use axemen. helps them get experience, too, so you promote them to city raider, and then send them off to fight while you replace them with a newbie. I would say that in 50% of my games I don't bother to research archers.

If you are lucky, you can take out an early civilization while it is a single city defended by one or two warriors. Typically to do that you will need 2-3 warriors with city raider 1 or 2. Huts giving you warriors and animals giving you XP can give you this; if you are lucky, you can get this near an enemy civ. If I am lucky to have two warriors near an enemy civ in the very early game, he is toast if he is not on a hill or protective.

For your first "full fledged" war against an early but not baby civilization, it is possible to churn out axes pretty easily. I do recommend barracks because you need that city raider. Figure two axes per archer with one in reserve (you will need more for cities on hills or protective civs), as long as the axes have a city raider promotion or an anti-bow promotion. You want to raze all cities except extraordinary ones and even think twice about keeping a capital if it is very far away. Maintenance is not just a *****, it is two *****es. Take every opportunity to kill barbs to get those XP for city raider and/or anti-bow. Look for horse/copper/iron resources to raze to keep your opponent weak. When faced with choice of going against protective or other opponent, go against the other. Take advantage of early UU if you have them. Get copper as soon as possible and if you are copper poor go nuts to get iron. Remember that it is easier to take out enemy units outside of cities than in them, so try to stop enemy reinforcement of a city you want. Be wary of attacking archers on hills if they will be moving off of them. Make sure your promoted units don't get left behind as garrisons, always try to keep your best units fighting, not garrisoning (which may mean constantly replacing garrisons with new units). Build roads towards the enemy so that your reinforcements get there faster.

Except against protective or otherwise very strong defenders, you won't need catapults for some time. Catapults are specialist units, not multi-purpose units, whereas a unit like an axeman serves a variety of purposes. I have played early conquest games where I have never bothered to get catapults, focusing on getting maces as soon as possible. Maces will dominate until longbows start appearing, and at that point you may need catapults and or trebuchets, and the pace of conquest will slow down.

Wars in Civ IV are all about attrition. You need to kill more enemy units than he can kill of yours and produce more than he can produce. Try to take advantage of his counterattack capabilities--kill his counterattack stack (either by attacking or defending) and you will have really hurt him. Try to take out his high production cities. A few light fast movements can go after his key military resources, too.

Warfare really slows down during the time period afer longbows are introduced and before riflemen, so you want to maximize your conquests before that stasis sets in. You can then use the intervening period to build your economy, catch up in tech, develop your captured cities, link them together, repair your money situation, etc. If you have conquered a couple of situations and capitalized on those conquests and either the captured cities or the blank spaces left by the non-expansion of the dead enemy, then by the time you get rifles, ahead of your opponents, you can go on another spree. Infantry is right behind rifleman, which can increase your advantage for some time.

[Seedle]

Re: Re: Re: Help with my early game warring (LONG!)

Originally posted by NFIH
Need the archers as there are barbs running around.

Both axemen and chariots are better vs. barbs than archers. If you have researched BW and Animal Husbandry (which are generally 2 of the first 3 techs I research), and don't have either copper or horses nearby, then absolutely make archery a first priority. But if you have either of those two resources, archery is a waste, unless you have an archer UU, but then archery should be your first research priority.

I should clarify: I mean roading within my borders as close as possible to the enemy border without actually going into unclaimed territory. So three or four tiles max.

That seems reasonable.

this is interesting to note. I always lose a lot of heart when I see neighbours tech to macemen/longbows, etc., before me. I'll try to steel myself more.

See your other "where to go from here thread" for what happens when you get infantry first.