Cottage econemy

[fed1943]

About the two fish,two cottages and two specialists be a poor play,
I agree if you mean two permanent specialists.
But two temporary specialists with a pre-defined goal, like a shrine,an
academy, a lightbulb, I see it as very strong.
Best regards,

[Shalkai]

Originally posted by wodan11
Well I could volunteer I suppose. We would have to determine which flavor of each (CE and SE) gets demoed, map settings, choice of leader, skill level. Thoughts anyone?

There are detailed SE scenarios over on CFC but I would probably get shot for pointing you over there.

Though, I am not aware of any good SE->CE switch demos. So I wouldn't mind doing it for that reason alone.

Wodan

Excellent!

Um, I'll have to plagiarize Sgt. Schultz re: flavors of CE and SE. "I know nothink! NOTHINK!" What kinds are there?

Map settings should probably be something frequently used, and balanced. Continents, Fractal, Pangaea? Normal speed so people can get thru it quickly. Standard fare on the options - keep it close to the "basic" game. Skill level...maybe Monarch, so the AI's actually get a bit of a lead in the mid-game, and are a serious challenge (but not too tough)?

Civ and leader is the real choice. I'd think we should avoid any trait that greatly benefits just CE or SE.
Examples: CE - Financial (uber-cottages), Expansive (caps and workers);
SE - Philosophical (double GPP), Industrious (extra wonders).

Traits that are good for both? How about Spiritual (free civic changes), Organized (better economy, period).
Asoka has both. Indian UU is fast worker, UB is Mausoleum. Both are nice; neither encourage war-mongering to distract from our econo-building exercise.

Other leaders that ought to be good at first glance...Hammurabi, Hatshepsut, Justinian, Saladin, and Zara Yaqob caught my eye. I'm sure there's others.

Wodan, you'll be the expert showing off the details, so you should do the scenario picking after a little discussion. There is no "perfect" scenario; we just need a good one. CIV is a wonderful game where there is no single right answer, which is the whole point of this potential demo. Let's not bog down too much worrying over the minutae.

[wodan11]

Well CE has minor variations only IMO. SE is where there are a lot of types. The biggest question is whether to do Caste or not.

The rest isn't what I usually play but meh seems fine. What about tech trading on or off?

Yes, been through the whole issue of avoiding biased traits. Previously we ended up on Shaka as a safe bet, but there are a couple other non-offensive options, as you say. Asoka would be fine since you want to avoid extensive warring.

When you say scenario you don't mean "scenario", just the map etc, right?

I'll probably just run with it. Try to do it in the next few days but might be the weekend.

Wodan

[#07]

This is a great thread and it's given me some good ideas. I'm looking forward to some screen shots!

Personally, I usually run a hybrid economy and try to specialise cities if I can. The reason I've never tried a true CE or SE is that it sounds too extreme. I think of the CE as cottages and nothing else and I wonder how it's possible to build anything at all without any prod?

Also, on the topic of making a GP farm, should all tiles always be farmed? Say (in my current game) I have a city surrounded by flood plains and sitting on a river - this is going to be a food monster even with cottages on it, could it still be used as a GP farm with cottages? It just seems like a waste to farm this prime site.

[rjmatsleepers]

I'm looking forward to this exercise and I hope to learn a lot.

I recently played a game in which I deliberately ran an SE - the first time I have done so. I was pleasantly surprised how strong my science city was by the early modern period - over 700 beakers per turn if I remember correctly.

I replayed up to AD 1 as a CE for an unrepresentative comparison. At that point, my CE was producing over twice the number of beakers per turn as the SE had. Partly this was because the financial trait suited CE and no doubt the fact that I have much more experience with a CE had some effect.

Anyway, the results were sufficiently positive that I am keen to learn more about the best way to operate an SE.

RJM

[fed1943]

Mostly to Wodan,since he will be the map builder:

I see more CE v. SE as a rainbow, not a white and black thing.

The great point about CE or SE is IMHO the decision/s about farm

or cottage; and among the several SE the decision to have the

specialists in some good cities to pop GP more and earlier, or to put

them in moderate numbers in almost all cities to pop the ones we

want and when we want.

Is it possible to draw a place to test that? I don't know.

And my thanks in advance by your efforts.

Best regards,

[Shalkai]

Originally posted by wodan11
Well CE has minor variations only IMO. SE is where there are a lot of types. The biggest question is whether to do Caste or not.

I'd like to see Caste used - just to see when and how it can really help. My games basically never see Caste used - I just depend on what's available from buildings, which is about all I can support anyway at the higher difficulty levels.

The rest isn't what I usually play but meh seems fine. What about tech trading on or off?

Um, how about tech trades on, but no brokering? Actually, trades off might be good, so we have a real reason to be pushing research to the max. Just no brokering, please.

When you say scenario you don't mean "scenario", just the map etc, right?

Yeah, by "scenario" I just mean the settings/leader/etc. we end up choosing for this particular game, not a special mod or anything. Sorry for the confusion. My bad. I hafta learn to be careful using that word around here, where it often means "mod".

I'll probably just run with it. Try to do it in the next few days but might be the weekend.

Sounds good. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. I'll be busy all day and night Sat, but free most of Sunday. I'll check here Sun morning and see what's brewing.

Thanks!

[wodan11]

Haven't started yet so looks like this weekend. Been a tough week at work. On the flip side, that means I'll be ready for some civ.

Originally posted by #07
I'm looking forward to some screen shots!

I'll have plenty.

Also, on the topic of making a GP farm, should all tiles always be farmed?

I'd say yes but that's just me. The only tiles that don't need a farm are hills and tiles you won't be working because you're at the cap.

Say (in my current game) I have a city surrounded by flood plains and sitting on a river - this is going to be a food monster even with cottages on it, could it still be used as a GP farm with cottages? It just seems like a waste to farm this prime site.

Then maybe that shouldn't be your GP site. In particular, you look to be hitting the health cap pretty heavily. If you aren't able to trade for a lot of resources (perhaps you plan to have a piss-off strategy toward the AIs), and don't have many yourself, and don't get the Hanging Gardens, etc, then it would be better to cottage this city, reap those benefits, and use another site for your GP farm that will more efficiently make use of the terrain. You'll have less "waste", if that makes sense.

Originally posted by fed1943
I see more CE v. SE as a rainbow, not a white and black thing.

Agreed. Some people are purists but I think that it can be taken too far. Plain and simple: the whole reason the concept of an economy exists is because of civics, wonders, and other things that apply to your whole empire, and thus the more you leverage them across the board, the better you are. Nevertheless, there are city-specific items (such as Bureaucracy and National Epic) which indicate that it is still wise to have some specialized cities which are contrary to your empire's economy.

and among the several SE the decision to have the specialists in some good cities to pop GP more and earlier, or to put them in moderate numbers in almost all cities to pop the ones we want and when we want

Is it possible to draw a place to test that? I don't know.

What do you mean "draw a place"? You mean get a random map? I intend to generate a map and immediately load WB to see what it looks like. If it isn't suitable for the SE and CE I intend to run, I'll regenerate. This will tell me where the AIs and such are, but so what. The point is to avoid warmongering anyway.

And my thanks in advance by your efforts.

No worries. It'll be fun.

Originally posted by Shalkai
I'd like to see Caste used - just to see when and how it can really help. My games basically never see Caste used

Fine by me.

Um, how about tech trades on, but no brokering? Actually, trades off might be good, so we have a real reason to be pushing research to the max. Just no brokering, please.

The problem here is that one of the strengths of SE is lightbulbing and then trading techs around like the clap. On the other hand, it's important to note that this is somewhat of an illusory benefit... it helps the AIs almost as much as you. So, turning them off might avoid that whole question.

Sounds good. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know. I'll be busy all day and night Sat, but free most of Sunday. I'll check here Sun morning and see what's brewing.

Doubt it... pretty much a one person task. I should have something by Sunday. Feel free to critique.

I'll probably play one game through the finish before starting the other. And, probably will make a thread for each one. I can certainly start the first game. Don't know if I'll finish it or have time to begin the second. But regardless once begun it'll be easy to progress next week.

Wodan