The State Atheism Civic

[Heraclitus]

State Atheism- The Effects v3

1.
Religions and religious buildings have no effect, religion can not spread (like state property for corporations and theocracy for non-state... how brilliant of me )

2.
Wall street gets +1 for all religions in all your cities
Ofxord University gets +1 for all specialists.

3.
Cathedrals and Shrines produce +1 unhappiness and provide a 100% espionage bonus, temples still produce culture (these are the only exception to the first rule)

4.
Free spy per barracks & police station, free scientist per university


The rational behind the above is apparent if you know a bit about anti-religius "atheist states" like the USSR, Cuba, China or Nazi Germany.

The above rules produce the following indirect effects:

-without religion no missionaries and no new temples can be built. No Priest specialists except those granted by wonders.
-No new temples= no new cathedrals
-no unhappiness for "fighting brothers and sisters of the fait".
-the AP no longer provides a produciton bonus for your cities.
-No shrines (yours or theirs) get any gold form your cities. Your shrines still get gold from foreign believers.
-Cathedrals become a espionage enhancing building instead of a culture enhancing building

Example: This means that a city with three cathedrals will become a super spy city, with +3 unhappiness, this will loose you specialists but, the only specialist worth having in such a city are spies, and the 150% bonus more than pays for them.

Upkeep: I'd go for high, making this a good civic for organized civs, giving them a boost in the late game. It also makes sense since the expenses of repressing religion are at least as much as maintaining a police state or a large & wealthy state church.


optional rules, if you think it is under-powered
-Scotland Yard produces +2 great Spy points for each cathedral or religious wonder.


How it adds to strategy:
I think its quite apparent.

[Heraclitus]

I think It would simulate almost all the aspects of real world atheist states. Nazi Germany, Stalin’s Russia, Cuba, China, Early Yugoslavia,…


A war-time civic that increases state control. Deny your enemy of a source of income and keep religions spreading dangerous messages of supposed “brotherhood”.


The severe repression creates unhappiness among true believers (slightly more than the psychological benefits their religion provides) and proponents of human rights. Since there is no way to determine their number, one per cathedral seems enough.


I was thinking of perhaps making the UN a +2 unhappines producing building as well, what do you think of that? BTW Should Religious shrines in addition to providing income from gullable foreigners behave as Cathedrals by this rationale


The state nationalizes the property of Organized religions, any income they make, if they are allowed to keep it is severely taxed. Pilgrimage is frowned upon as a waste, so no trips to the holy land for you citizen 341-alpha.


There has never been a state that has completely dismantled all religion. Local Churches and Temples remain a source of culture. They do not provide happiness, since any positive effects on mental well-being are canceled out by the gaze of the ever-watchful government officials and police officers.


Any remnants of Religious Organizations are intensely monitored for signs of dissent or “foreign influence”. This is why cathedrals have an espionage bonus.


I also think the AI should have a heathen relationship mauls for you. Civs with Free Religion dislike you as well if you refuse to adopt it, otherwise they don’t care.

[jkp1187]

I don't understand the Wall Street bonus at all. That would be the first thing I'd take out of this.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by jkp1187
I don't understand the Wall Street bonus at all. That would be the first thing I'd take out of this.

The Wall Street national wonder of Civ4 is a representation of a “financial capital or center”, it has nothing to do with the “real” Wall Street since it functions just fine under State property or Environmentalism. As such I felt it would be more fair to have the bonus be linked to it rather than the capital, since it takes away the ability to make a stupid decision on the players side, while still preserving the possibility of a nice synergy with bureaucracy.

If you dont' understand where the money is coming from, read my second post. Or, alternativley, think about it a bit,the majoirty of chruch incoms if not all of them are heavily taxed or even forcufuly rediverted to the state, this is doubly true if this income would be leaving the country and going into the "Vatican"s coffers.

[jkp1187]

My objections are to it as a game mechanic. The player is still getting the gold bonus as usual under your proposed civic, it's not like the player isn't receiving the usual cash from religious shrines; I see no reason to include the bonus.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by jkp1187
My objections are to it as a game mechanic. The player is still getting the gold bonus as usual under your proposed civic, it's not like the player isn't receiving the usual cash from religious shrines; I see no reason to include the bonus.

Your civ and the others don't get any shrine gold for your cities.


Corporate headquarters get no income from corporations spread in lands with State Property.

[Fleme]

Atheism (religious civic)
Available at Fascism

-Religions have no effect (meaning exemption from AP votes and everything religious buildings give). No state religion. Religions can spread to your cities and opponents Shrines gain revenue from your cities with their religion in it. You cannot construct religious buildings.
+10% from Library, University (Representing the populace spending time with the logical instead of the divine)
+10% from Market, Bank (Representing the allocated revenue that citizens have when they are exempt from paying taxes to their churches etc.)
+10% from Forge, Factory (No more religious holidays means more days spent at the manufacturing line)
+1 , +10% from Colosseum, Theatre, Broadcast Tower (People spend time with other forms of passtime and entertainment and these are developed further)

I think this would be a good reflection of an Atheist state. I would consider these bonuses to be accurate since when you compare a thoroughly religious nation and compare it with one that has no religion practiced or recognized it's logical to see that the citizens would be more inclined to spend their time in libraries, allocate their spending, have lesser religious holidays and find their happiness elsewhere and also spend more time in Theatres and Arenas as a consequence. The masses of the people will always need something to keep themselves preoccupied whether it be religion or other means of entertainment and/or culture.

[jkp1187]

And the State Property civic works quite well without giving any bonus to Wall Street.

I'd say as a principle of game design, it is a better idea to grant bonuses and/or penalties across-the-board, and let the players decide if/how they can use buildings within the confines of that civic, instead of giving a one-off bonus to a single wonder.

Personally, I never quite liked how SMAC altered bonuses for certain wonders based on which civics were being run.... (One of my few complaints about that game.)

[Marcusem78]

The issue i have with it is the cessation of the spread of religion. I have a problem with Theocracy as well for the same reason, but it does provide a purpose in the game already. Realistically speaking, religion is one of the primary 'ideas' in human history which it is IMPOSSIBLY to stop. Repression only proves to drive it underground, but that never stops its growth. In fact, in amny parts of history, repression only proves to strengthen a religion and cause it to fluorish . The one exception to this I can think of off the top of my head is modern day China; however, the state does support Confuciansim, which is technically more of a philosophy rather than a 'religion'.

[Marcusem78]

As it is the philosophy of Confuciansim has a strong effect on Chinese culture, but religion is also present there. It's just not supported or condoned by the state.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Marcusem78
I have a problem with Theocracy as well for the same reason, but it does provide a purpose in the game already. Realistically speaking, religion is one of the primary 'ideas' in human history which it is IMPOSSIBLY to stop.

Theocracy doesn't stop the spread of religion completely, just thru missionaries.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by jkp1187
And the State Property civic works quite well without giving any bonus to Wall Street.

I'd say as a principle of game design, it is a better idea to grant bonuses and/or penalties across-the-board, and let the players decide if/how they can use buildings within the confines of that civic, instead of giving a one-off bonus to a single wonder.

Personally, I never quite liked how SMAC altered bonuses for certain wonders based on which civics were being run.... (One of my few complaints about that game.)

Well offcourse it does, corporations aren't meant to make you money with your cities, they are meant as city specialisation tools.


Besides this is nothing like SMAC, a national wonder is a one of a kind city that all civs have. A palace is in many ways a nationa wonder and the B civic affects it.


Yes but Wall Street is a wonder everyone has by the time Fascism is available. So I don't see the point. Though you could change the Wall Street bonus to something like the Spiral Minaret for all religions. Do you have a problem with any of the other changes?

[Theben]

You can use state property + free religion to effectively mimic this idea. I know it's not "free religion" but the result is about the same.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Marcusem78
The issue i have with it is the cessation of the spread of religion. I have a problem with Theocracy as well for the same reason, but it does provide a purpose in the game already. Realistically speaking, religion is one of the primary 'ideas' in human history which it is IMPOSSIBLY to stop. Repression only proves to drive it underground, but that never stops its growth. In fact, in amny parts of history, repression only proves to strengthen a religion and cause it to fluorish . The one exception to this I can think of off the top of my head is modern day China; however, the state does support Confuciansim, which is technically more of a philosophy rather than a 'religion'.

Listen look it up on wikipedia, all religion suppresing states have even once the repression stops, much higher numbers of Atheists. Russia, Cuba,.. only a few exceptions to that like Romania.


And then look at Iran which runs theocracy. Its liek 98% Muslim and I bet Isabellas spain was similar. I mean Judaism dosen't flurish in either places. And neither did Christianity under Ottoman rule and they were quite tolerant.



Let's say ancient Rome ran more of a Organised Religion than a theocracy. So I'm sorry but your argument dosen't realy have merit.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Theben


Theocracy doesn't stop the spread of religion completely, just thru missionaries.

That isn't quite true.