How do you pair your National Wonders?

[wodan11]

cross-posted with Snoopy.

[Ming]

Oppps.... me bad. Yeah, I can see how my earlier statement made no sense. What a difference is made by the shift of one letter

[JeebusGreen]

While theoretically the idea of NE + NP in a heavily forested/jungled area would be great, I don't think it's ever worth setting up.

There's a big stretch in between NE becoming available and NP becoming available. In a golden opportunity, you've either,

a) carefully resisted cutting down all the trees and jungle around a city til NP, or
b) found/captured a heavily forested/jungled late game

With option b, you haven't built NE anywhere. So you're straight out missing on a potential +100% GPP in a pre-existing city you'd be using for GP. How many GP are you going to lose out on by waiting for NP? That's a lot of turns. Sure the eventual GPP rate might be higher if hold out, but a GPP in the hand is worth two in the bush (or was that birds? ). I'd rather have my GP earlier on even if it means less overall.

Option a is a little more feasible, especially if you plan right ahead and put NE in early - but again, that's going to be a weaker GPP farm, and fairly gimped for other purposes as well. I'd rather convert that city to something else - an extra military/science/commerce/production city early on with a better GP farm elsewhere seems better than a GREAT GP city later on. Or converting that forested city to an early GPP farm by removing the trees and putting in farms.

[JeebusGreen]

I've wondered what it'd be like to have GT and WP in a high-food city.

Odd combo maybe, but you could have a free hand with drafting, and since drafting cuts XP in half WP would help bring up the level of the drafted troops.

Barracks + WP + 2 of (Theocracy, Vassalge, GG, Pentagon) = 11XP. Divide that in half and you'd be drafting lvl 3 troops.

This idea hasn't been tested in anyway, or even thought through very well, so feel free to shoot it down

When it comes to WP - I normally put it in my production city rather than combine it with HE.
I find that with Heroic Epic + Military Academy + all the GG's I've settled there, I can often produce 17XP units, using Theocracy/Vassalge if needs be.
At that point, I'd rather start bringing up the level of green troops in another production city than tossing a few more XP over the 17XP threshold.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by JeebusGreen
that's going to be a weaker GPP farm, and fairly gimped for other purposes as well.

Before we can talk about your conclusions, it seems like you've based them upon two separate assumptions, both of which look dubious to me. Can you support either of them?

Now, if you want to argue that you don't have the self-discipline to resist chopping, that's a different story. (I remember a couple months ago somebody over on CFC argued that he had to adapt his strategy to his predilections or otherwise it didn't work.)

Wodan

[wodan11]

Originally posted by JeebusGreen
I've wondered what it'd be like to have GT and WP in a high-food city.

Odd combo maybe, but you could have a free hand with drafting, and since drafting cuts XP in half WP would help bring up the level of the drafted troops.

Barracks + WP + 2 of (Theocracy, Vassalge, GG, Pentagon) = 11XP. Divide that in half and you'd be drafting lvl 3 troops.

This idea hasn't been tested in anyway, or even thought through very well, so feel free to shoot it down

When it comes to WP - I normally put it in my production city rather than combine it with HE.
I find that with Heroic Epic + Military Academy + all the GG's I've settled there, I can often produce 17XP units, using Theocracy/Vassalge if needs be.
At that point, I'd rather start bringing up the level of green troops in another production city than tossing a few more XP over the 17XP threshold.

Hunh, interesting. But, that's a lot of setup, and you would wouldn't want to be running Theo/Vasslage normally, because your high-food city is presumably low production, thus it wouldn't be able to churn out troops without the benefit of Nationalism. So, you would have to be Spiritual, and go through a period every so often where you switched over and drafted 10-12 turns in a row, then switched back.

Wodan

[JeebusGreen]

As in, by leaving forests up all around it (let's not even talk about jungle), it's probably going to be a much less effective GP farm for that long stretch of turns til you get NP - as compared to having NE in a city whose forested plains are turned into juicy farmlands.

And on the second part, it seems to me that by leaving it surrounded by vegetation it's not going to giving much production/commerce/science compared to one that's had it's acres of trees replaced with things like mines, cottages, workshops, farms, etc.

Now I'm not saying that a well-forested city can't still be a viable part of your empire. I'm just not so sure that the difference all the beakers/hammers/gold that it could be earning with a little land clearing adding up over the number of turns between NE and NP is worth the extra GPP late-game.

Does that make sense? I'm starting to confuse myself now. I guess it might also come from me always want to specialise and maximise my cities. I don't like having cities making average amounts of everything

[wodan11]

Originally posted by JeebusGreen
As in, by leaving forests up all around it (let's not even talk about jungle), it's probably going to be a much less effective GP farm for that long stretch of turns til you get NP - as compared to having NE in a city whose forested plains are turned into juicy farmlands.

Let's compare GPP. A typical wonder will give 2 GPP and eat no food. Meanwhile, the farm city can run 1 specialist per 2 worked farms, which = 3 GPP. This is the situation that I said in my experience comes about even. The production city can make many more wonders purely to get the GPP (and the wonder benefit is a bonus), while the farm city can't make any wonders at all but has specialists.

And on the second part, it seems to me that by leaving it surrounded by vegetation it's not going to giving much production/commerce/science compared to one that's had it's acres of trees replaced with things like mines, cottages, workshops, farms, etc.

Assuming grassland as basis for comparison, a forested production city produces 4 hammers for 2 citizens, while farm/mine produces 3 hammers for 2 citizens. That's because a farm only produces 1 surplus food. So, grass forests are a better production city than grass farm/mine. And, once you get Lumbermills, they become even better.

Now I'm not saying that a well-forested city can't still be a viable part of your empire. I'm just not so sure that the difference all the beakers/hammers/gold that it could be earning with a little land clearing adding up over the number of turns between NE and NP is worth the extra GPP late-game.

That's a totally different question. And, this question also applies to a "farm" GP Farm. The question being "is it better to have a GP farm or a normal commerce city" -- i.e., run cottages instead of all those specialists.

It's very difficult to answer that question, because we're comparing the benefit of having GP, which is not only varied big benefits but it's somewhat of an intangible. We can delve into that question if you want, but it's really an aside here. The value of having a GP Farm is pretty well established by the community, and isn't really what we're discussing when we wonder whether the NP is a good wonder to pair up with the NE.

Does that make sense? I'm starting to confuse myself now. I guess it might also come from me always want to specialise and maximise my cities. I don't like having cities making average amounts of everything

It makes sense, I just disagree with your assumptions that it makes less production and that it makes less GPP.

It sounds like forests = average production, whereas mines = more production. I think what you're forgetting is that each mine requires a farm to feed the citizen working it, plus there has to be a second citizen working the farm. 2 citizens produce 3F/0H + 1F/3H = 4F/3H, and they eat 4F, so you're left with 3H. Meanwhile 2 forests produce 2F/2H each = 4F/4H, eating 4F results in 4H.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

I do sometimes have a GPP farm that has enough forests to justify building the NP there. Typically what will happen is I have a city with:
2-3 food resources
One of (copper/horse/iron)
5-6 flood plains
2-3 more grassland tiles
8-9 forests

This city is a pretty effective GPP farm without clearing many, or any, of the forests. It gets around 44 food for 10 pop working, or +24 food, supporting 12 specialists; most cities can't handle even that pre-biology anyhow due to health concerns (22 pop at this point). It also has a lot of flexibility in terms of hammers to produce those key buildings (library, marketplace, depending on what type of GP you are going for), even if you don't have the copper/iron/horse that I'd prefer. (Yes, I had a city precisely like this a few games ago - and not a capital ... one of the food tiles was a cow, which is better for hammers but only supported 10 specialists at size 10 as a result).

Specializing is certainly good, and I do so in the above city - but flexibility is also key. You have to have some hammer production in every city to provide for their buildings; and while you could chop these 8 or 9 forests to get those buildings, you'd be better off in the long run keeping the forests, as you will get more than 30 hammers out of them if you build the key buildings in a GPP city:
Granary
Grocery
Aqueduct
Library / Marketplace
Univ / Bank
Observatory/-
National Epic
NW #2 (National Park or Globe Theater)
Happiness buildings (if no Globe) (Theater, Temple(s), Cathedral(s), Colliseum, as needed)
Those buildings take hammers, and require putting a few of your population to work periodically ... the ability to put them to work on a hammer producing tile is very important, particularly post-railroad where you have 2f/3h tiles (lumbermill+RR) where you can work just 3 or 4 of them and produce buildings quickly and efficiently.

[wodan11]

Yeah that's the best of both worlds, Snoopy. Plus, all that floodplain will pretty much force you to not chop the forests, because of the health issues (compounded by the high pop you want to run because it's your GP farm).

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Indeed, that's a good portion of the reason why not to chop

[JeebusGreen]

Sure, wodan. Bring out the numbers why don't you.
I'll base my flimsy idea on ambiguous observations and you support yours with number crunching.

I'll come back to the table when I've thought this through a bit more My anxious strategy of pushing for early output for early dominance is based on a few assumptions from me I haven't really checked to numbers, and burning a few bridges to later bonuses (bridges, incidentally, made from the endangered native woodland).

Back on topic, a combo I quite liked:
NE + Oxford University.
Did it in my first Space Race victory game (Prince) just recently (to clarify: I'm not a newb, I've just tended to lean towards playing with sticks and stones. Unit promotions give me the warm and fuzzies).

First time I tried running a specialist heavy economy (Peter - PHIL/EXP), and my capitol was running high food and scientists from as early as possible. Bit of a snowball effect on my science there with the high rate of GS points - the more scientists I ran, the more GS's I settled, and the better primed for Oxford University when I could!

And excuse the slight NP tangent, but to add:


In that game too I scored a city in a border skirmish a fair way after NE but still way before NE or lumbermills - with over half the surrounding tiles as forest and jungle (bit more jungle I think), which I devoutly left untouched. Bit of food and rivered grassland. I kept that going along slowly, and with a bunch of religions to provide me with temple slots for priests, and Angkor Wat (sp?), I managed to keep production high enough to establish itself even with minimal improvements and population.
With NP and the free added specialists later on, I actually turned it into a spook-run espionage base I left that one damned grass/hill tile alone aside from road/rail for a good 200 turns too. Jungle and forest on all sides. Never did grow

A little bit contradictory in action to what I was trying to say earlier, I wasn't making a good case anyway

[Yosho]

Yeah. I usually build national epic in a coastal city with tons of seafood early, for lots of great people, and then build the national park in a heavily forested inland city later, so that wouldn't work. Generally, any good natioanl park city, any city with lots of forests, is almost certanly a bad national epic city for the entire rest of the game up to that point since it probably has very limited food.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Yosho
Generally, any good natioanl park city, any city with lots of forests, is almost certanly a bad national epic city for the entire rest of the game up to that point since it probably has very limited food.

Are we back to this? I challenge the premise that a Specialist GP Farm is the only way to go. More than that, I challenge the premise that it is always the best way to go.

To wit: A production city cranking out wonders is a very effective "GP Farm".

Wodan

[snoopy369]

A specialist GP farm is almost always better GP-wise than a wonder GP city, but the value of the wonders can offset this.

An optimal specialist GP farm nearly always makes more GPP than a wonder city over time (not by the end of the game, but earlier on it does), particularly at harder levels; and it is much more flexible in terms of GPP allocation (you can choose the type of GP you get). With representation it's usually worth a bit more, due to the science you get (+60 science... not half bad). Note that you certainly need another city to generate Engineer GPs to build the key wonders in a specialist GP farm (Great Library, ie).

However, you can have plenty of forests in a city with plenty of food, as I discuss above It just depends on the game. And certainly there are lots of games where you can't build an optimal specialist farm, but can build an optimal wonder farm. Additionally, the details certainly change with regards to leader - an Ind. leader may be better off building a wonder city, while an Exp leader builds great specialist GP farms.

Ultimately, the point here is that Civ4 is a wonderful game with many different strategies that work, and it's not necessarily possible to say which is truly 'better' since each game has different elements to it, and each player a different play style