Ancient Age Conquest and other questions

[Indalecio]

I ran my first decent war on Saturday. I played as Survayarman(Khmer) versus Montezuma. I had Washington on my side. Washington invited me into his war against Montezuma a few turns before developing Construction. I got to thinking, does anyone really start any wars before getting catapults? Cites and culture bonuses make it too difficult, and aside from the rare occurence when you come across an otherwise undefended city, very time consuming.

But does this have to be? There must've been Rams back in ancient times, which could knock down city gates. It'd be a nice option to have, and instead of having a separate unit, why not make this as Unit Promotion. Units receiving this would get the Bombard option which would knock down city defenses, but wouldn't cause collateral damage. I can see this unit promotion availible to melee and scout units. Or even to more modern units, instead of being Ram, the name would be changed 'Explosives Expert'.


A couple of questions. Does an attacker on foreign soil receive any other penalties besides being slower to heal?

A Warrior on a hill receives a defense bonus from being on a hill. Is this defense bonus factored in somehow if he attacks someone who is on the plains next to him? Or is it only factored in when he is being attacked?

[Theben]

You can read AAHZ's thread wrt ancient wars.

Scouts can't attack. Other melee units can get the "City Raider" promotion.

Attackers on foreign soil also can't use the roads or RRs. If they have the commando promotion, they can use enemy roads.

The DEF bonus only applies when attacked.

[jbp26]

Re: Ancient Age Conquest and other questions

Originally posted by Indalecio
I got to thinking, does anyone really start any wars before getting catapults?

if i havent assimilated an enemy civ or two before catapults, i'm probably not going to win that game. its really not too difficult at all, and definitely worth the investment.

[Indalecio]

Originally posted by Theben

You can read AAHZ's thread wrt ancient wars.

I've been reading his Archer Rush threads. But that seems to be geared mostly to the Native Americans.

Scouts can't attack. Other melee units can get the "City Raider" promotion.

With this promotion, they still can't attack. They'd just be act like a catapult does and knock down city walls.

Does City Raider negate cultural bonus? I am not sure what it does exactly.

Originally posted jbp26
if i havent assimilated an enemy civ or two before catapults, i'm probably not going to win that game. its really not too difficult at all, and definitely worth the investment.

I haven't had much success with that. I take it you're using units with an Agressive Leader and early UU?

[Theben]

Originally posted by Indalecio

I've been reading his Archer Rush threads. But that seems to be geared mostly to the Native Americans.

The point is that it can be done. Most other folks use Axemen or Swordsmen w/ City Raider promotions.

Does City Raider negate cultural bonus? I am not sure what it does exactly.

You get +20% or more ATT vs. units in cities.

I haven't had much success with that. I take it you're using units with an Agressive Leader and early UU?

Not necessarily. I once built 4 Axemen and attacked my nearby neighbor Isabella, and took Madrid. This was with Washington.

It all depends on your situation. If you have an enemy civ starting nearby it's usually good to get rid of them early. Whether or not you should depends on many factors; i.e. your early unit capabilities, if the AIs capitol is on a hill and he's protective, etc.

[Fleme]

My favorite early rush for Monarch-Emperor is most certainly the Incas. Since on these difficulties (I don't even recall the lower, do they get warriors or archers?) the AI starts with an archer or two and since the Quechuas are especially geared to beating archers and especially so if you get a Barracks and promote Cover, you get really good results. I can realistically expect to destroy 2 civilizations with my 6-8 Quechuas without setting my economy back or focusing on a military goal other than the Quechuas themselves, which incidentally are available from turn one.

It does suck when your neighbors are Protective or Babylon, though . Still, hands down my preferred rush strategy. Other than that, I do go to war prior to catapults if I know I'm facing a weaker enemy. Incidentally, in a current game on Big and Small I happened to end up on a continent with Montezuma and Ragnar who both naturally scared me at first but then I just figured I'd deal with them as soon as possible so I went for Iron Working, built 8 Swordsmen and marched on their cities without any siege equipment and destroyed them both, leaving me with a full continent to myself.

Early wars are almost always the right course of action, giving you land and weakening your opponents, both of which are steps towards a won game. (If you succeed in your early war, that is)

Conclusion: Try the Incas!

[snoopy369]

It's intentional not to have pre-cat. siege units; 'rushing' is already too easy as it is (attacking someone early in the build phase, taking advantage of their focus on building workers/cities/buildings instead of building armies), and so it's intentional that the units that allow you to take cities (swordsmen, catapults) come after (to some extent, significantly after) the units that allow you to defend cities (archers, axemen, chariots). Civ is intended to be a somewhat defensive game, where you can certainly - and must, usually - attack, but making it harder to attack than to defend. Otherwise, builder strategies would never be viable, and they're the core of Civ...

[jbp26]

Originally posted by Indalecio
I haven't had much success with that. I take it you're using units with an Agressive Leader and early UU?

Nope. I don't like aggressive leaders and rarely play them. An early UU is usually good, but definitely not necessary. As long as you have axemen, swordsmen, or chariots you should have everything you need. There are some exceptions; for instance, creative and especially protective civs can be very difficult to dislodge, so you might be better off just pinning them down and waiting for catipults.

[snoopy369]

My favorite civ for early rushes is the Egyptians... if you can't beat two enemies (in a normally packed map) with war chariots, you're not trying hard enough (or didn't get horses ) Quechuas are nice and can certainly do some serious damage to archers, but War Chariots are good enough that with the Melee promotion, they can beat out spearmen frequently enough that any civ who doesn't build solely mil units won't survive the rush; add on the ability to quickly raze copper, and it's certainly the best UU for rushes.

[Fleme]

You can't say it's best since there are different kinds of rushes. I can produce my 5 Quechuas faster than you can even get a single War Chariot out! Also, a strong contender would be Immortals since you can choke with them.

[Theben]

I foresee a Snoopy/Fleme MP match.

[rah]

Too bad the time zones don't match up well. But he's welcome to join any of our saturday night (sunday early morning for him) games

[johnmcd]

Incas rock for super fast rushes.

If you're playing on raging barbs too you can throw up a Great Wall, let the barbs hammer your neighbours and go in with the Quechas, fully promoted on barbarian blood.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Fleme
It does suck when your neighbors are Protective or Babylon, though .

It doesn't work all that well with the Mayans either. At least if he's already made it to Bronze Working.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Indalecio
It'd be a nice option to have, and instead of having a separate unit, why not make this as Unit Promotion. Units receiving this would get the Bombard option which would knock down city defenses, but wouldn't cause collateral damage. I can see this unit promotion availible to melee and scout units. Or even to more modern units, instead of being Ram, the name would be changed 'Explosives Expert'.

This would completely defeat the purpose of having different units in the game. If you explore along those lines, why not just have a single unit throughout the game and just give it different promotions to fulfill different needs? We would never have to upgrade them or make decisions as to what to build next. Just keep pumping out the same unit turn after turn.