Protective Trait = Archer Rush Is Back.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Pinchak


Drill is clearly defensive in my book. Reason being that for first strike to work, you need to win the roll.

In general, a unit usually has better terrain defence bonus when getting attacked, therefore its chance of winning the roll (and using first strike) are greater.

If your unit is much weaker than your opponent, it doesn't matter if you have 20 first strike chances or 1. Drill works best when you have the tatical advantage, but your opponent outnumbers you.

If we ignore siege, you're correct. Also, we would have to ignore attacks with more than one unit (which, frankly, are 99% of battles), which after all usually simply boil down to the attacker sending one guy in to die, after which the defender is whittled down and weaker. Furthermore, we would have to ignore the possibility that the attacker has stronger units even with defensive bonuses, which is the situation I pointed out to start with.

If the situation is one on one, without any other considerations, you guys are correct. I completely agree. However, we have to consider that each combat occurs in a bigger context, which sheds light to show that first strike might be a little underrated.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by wodan11

When you win, you win faster, on average.


If healing faster did not help offensive wars, then the medic promotion would not ever get used.

Wodan

Yes but all this is in the probability of winning. If the chances of winning are higher then the amount of damage received is going, on average to be lower. If two units (one of which has Drill promotions) each have an 80% chance of winning then the expected damage each would take would be about the same. Even so, I would prefer, for example, an 80% win probability with a 40% expected damage to a 70% win probability with a 30% expected damage

For healing, the medic promotions, are rather like the blitz promotion in that they give units more attacks because they spend less time to heal. However, if we assume that most healing is done in your cities with at least a medic I (usually I have a medic III) present, then it hardly matters if one unit is down to 50% and the other is 60% if they both take 2 turns to heal. The gain here is marginal

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Pinchak


Drill is clearly defensive in my book. Reason being that for first strike to work, you need to win the roll.

In general, a unit usually has better terrain defence bonus when getting attacked, therefore its chance of winning the roll (and using first strike) are greater.

If your unit is much weaker than your opponent, it doesn't matter if you have 20 first strike chances or 1. Drill works best when you have the tatical advantage, but your opponent outnumbers you.

I don't think you understand FS. Combat is resolved as such:
1. Compare FSs; if both units have FS, then only the unit with more FS's gets any (and it gets the difference); so if a 4 FS unit attacks a 1 FS unit, the first unit gets 3 FSs total.
2. Roll the FS's from the unit that gets them (if any), and apply that damage. If the non-FS unit is killed, end combat here.
3. Roll for both units at this point until one dies or withdraws.

So, FS means you get a few free hits before he gets to hit back. If the power ratio is such that each unit dies in 5 hits, for example, then the unit with 3 FS's gets to take three of those shots first; so if 60% hit, let's say 2 of the FS's, then the other unit is left at 60% health (3/5 hits remaining to kill it) while the FS unit is at 100% (5/5).

That doesn't make FS 'defensive'. You're correct though in saying that FS multiplies terrain bonus rather than adding (Combat I adds the same 0.6 to a crossbow regardless of terrain, from 7.5 to 8.1 on a forest grassland for example, while Drill gives one additional shot at 7.5). This means that ANY bonus the unit gets (as opposed to reducing the opponent) is more effective when combined with Drill than with Combat I, which doesn't 'combine' really at all. (I am not entirely familiar with which combine to the unit's score and which detract from the opposing unit's score, but I think terrain is additive.)

It certainly means that, for a Defensive unit, you should give it Drill over Combat I most of the time (if it's going to be defending on terrain/city/etc.). It does not take away from Drill's advantages on offense, however.

Combat I/etc. isn't going to help you any more when you're 'much weaker' than your opponent; a 6 vs a 20, for example, is actually helped somewhat more by Drill because it can't survive as many hits by the 20, so it needs to get in as many hits ahead of time as possible before the 20 gets to take its hit. A stack of 3 crossbows with Drill will be more likely to survive as a stack than 3 crossbows with Combat at the same level (particularly higher up in drill) because the first two that are pretty much dead no matter what are more likely to do damage before they die with FS's, and leave a weaker unit by the end.

[Seedle]

I agree with Wodan that the drill promotions have offensive uses and reduce combat damage. I had never used drill promotions until I had a late game war as America. Since the navy seals start with first strikes, I decided to see just how good a unit with maximum first strikes could be. Turns out, very good. The seals just crushed everything they attacked.

Since the seals were doing well, I promoted some tanks with drill. Although the drill 4 tanks had about the same win/loss ratio as city raider3/pinch tanks, the drill 4 tanks usually lost at most 2 health per attack, while the city raider tanks lost half their health or more. Thus, the drill 4 tanks could actually utilize blitz better than the city raider tanks.

So, drill decreases heal time, weakens enemy counter attacks through increased post battle health, and makes tanks ridiculous. I think all of these factors make drill a good offensive promotion.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Personally, when going with archers, I prefer to "defend" with them vs the AI by pillaging the AI's roads, and camping on defensive terrain near their cities.

Drives the AI insane.

Yes, it's a "defensive" unit with "defensive" promotions, but it's being used "offensively" as a harrassment.

Even so, I tend to prioritize other promos before Drill.

[wodan11]

Seedle, your examples are exactly what I'm talking about. Also, the Seals with March are huge. Not only do they lose less damage, but with March they heal the minimal damage in the 1-2 turns they are in transport to the next target. When you get this combo going on a roll, it's pretty much unstoppable, and it basically means you have half the overall army size that other civs will need. Half the maintenance. Half the production cost to build in the first place.

The tanks is another good example (without the march complication).

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by couerdelion


Yes but all this is in the probability of winning. If the chances of winning are higher then the amount of damage received is going, on average to be lower. If two units (one of which has Drill promotions) each have an 80% chance of winning then the expected damage each would take would be about the same. Even so, I would prefer, for example, an 80% win probability with a 40% expected damage to a 70% win probability with a 30% expected damage

This is not entirely true. A unit with first strikes compared to a unit with no first strikes, but the same overall percentage of winning, will indeed have somewhat less damage on average taken. This is due to the distribution of damage. The FS unit will do some of its damage at the beginning, and then have a lower chance of winning each additional shot; but if it has the same overall chance of winning, it will win with less damage (on average), if it has a favorable chance to begin with. I think that might reverse for unfavorable chances, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Take two 80% units; one has 1 FS and a 7 STR, one has no FS but a 7.2 STR, both attacking a no-FS 6 unit. Both win about 80% according to my calculations. In 100 attempts, the average HP remaining for the Drill unit is about 55% (range 51-59); the average HP remaining for the 7.2 no-drill unit is about 47% (range 44-50). Quite a significant difference.

For healing, the medic promotions, are rather like the blitz promotion in that they give units more attacks because they spend less time to heal. However, if we assume that most healing is done in your cities with at least a medic I (usually I have a medic III) present, then it hardly matters if one unit is down to 50% and the other is 60% if they both take 2 turns to heal. The gain here is marginal

I'd not make that assumption, as the better attacking units are the ones that can continue attacking, rather than hanging out in a city; captured cities in resistance don't help your healing any.

[Yosho]

(shrug) The only real advantage I know of to the PRO trait is that it allows you to take more a economically oriented tech route in the early game; with the PRO trait, you can get archers and then go either for religions or even right for cottages and then alphabet without getting Bronze first; City Defender archers do fine against enemy AI axemen or especally barb axemen even if you don't have bronze yourself and/or don't have a copper supply.

But, yeah. Nothing that really makes it worthwhile, in my mind; just something I might try if I pick randomally and get a PRO leader.

[ZEE]

.

[Theben]

It's 1897 and you're just starting to research Assembly Line?

[jbp26]

upgrading archers to infantry, and really most upgrades, are prohibatively expensive. its much cheaper to just build new units, unless you're really in a bind. all that money you spent upgrading them would have been better spent buying infrastructure, techs, or research. its too late in the game to make a real bid for domination, so i would say your only real chance in this position would be space race.

[LzPrst]

Just got curious about another thing, it's roughly related to archers and drill so;
Horse Archers are immune to first strikes, but the Keshik, has 1 first strike. so does that mean, that if a Keshik attacks a drill upgraded archer it is weaker than a regular Horse archer?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by jbp26
upgrading archers to infantry, and really most upgrades, are prohibatively expensive. its much cheaper to just build new units, unless you're really in a bind.

Unless you have a good economy. In which case you can build cheap units quickly, then upgrade them in a couple of turns, and then overrun the poor sod that just started replacing his (now very much outdated) army. Add to that a beeline to an offensive unit, and watch the ensuing world vassalization.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by LzPrst
Just got curious about another thing, it's roughly related to archers and drill so;
Horse Archers are immune to first strikes, but the Keshik, has 1 first strike. so does that mean, that if a Keshik attacks a drill upgraded archer it is weaker than a regular Horse archer?

If the Keshik is not immune to FS, then perhaps. I'm not sure if it is or not; it could be immune but also have FS, I believe.

[Fleme]

Originally posted by One_more_turn
It's 1000AD and you haven't researched Mathematics at Prince level?

Originally posted by Theban
It's 1897 and you're just starting to research Assembly Line?

I see a recurring theme going on here

Anyways, for playing the game all the way.