Protective Trait = Archer Rush Is Back.

[snoopy369]

Walls certainly provide some deterrent value. They by themselves don't provide enough value, but certainly it can be the difference, especially if you are running low on money and need additional deterrent value without the GPT expense.

If you're going to build Walls for deterrent vaule, try to build Castles also (particularly if PRO) - the extra trade routes are huge.

[wodan11]

That would work against the AI Modo, but seems to me it would fail in MP, especially if your neighbor has an anti-archer UU. Even if not, he would promote against archers and pillage you back to the stone age.

But anyway yeah, that would probably work fine against the AI.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by wodan11
First Strike is an offensive trait.

And, walls adding to the power graph is not to be underestimated. Among other things, even during an offensive game, it will "scare off" some of the AIs and prevent them from gangbanging you.

Wodan

Drill I is not even as strong as Combat I in most offensive situations. And the combat promotions are hardly “offensive” until late in the game when you get to Rifleman and Grenadiers. Mounted units are probably an exception but these don’t get the option of drill promotions.

Offensive units are going to generally take the city raider promotion.

[jbp26]

Originally posted by couerdelion


Perhaps, although I think that tougher levels tend to encourage a more direct strategy of aggression - where offensive traits are more useful. Given that the first expansion phase at tougher levels is likely to be before the mediaeval period, the PRO trait will still only be of minor strategic use such as the ability to hold newly captured cities when forces are locally balanced.

thats the best summary of the argument against PRO. its by and large a reactive trait, whereas a proactive one will almost always be better.

[snoopy369]

For a single promotion unit, it's pretty powerful. Compare:

1. Stack of 8 Drill 2 (/CD 1) Crossbows
2. Stack of 8 Agg1/CR1 Macemen (I think this is 25% more hammer cost, if I remember numbers properly)

Attack a stack of mixed units of this level- say a few test stacks:

a. Two crossbows, Two longbows
b. Two longbows, Two pikemen
c. Two crossbows, Two pikemen

Assume no city defense bonus and no terrain bonus, but 25% fortify bonus, and CD1 (only) for all defender units. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the crossbow behaved better in A) and C) than the macemen... certainly better given the 25% additional cost.

The issue is that not only do archers not have direct counters, excepting UUs; but generally your opponent won't plan for them. Sure, they could give them all Cover; but unless you're his only opponent, he's probably not going to give it to many; and even if he does, then you just alter your strategy and build macemen. The first strike advantage - 3-4 FS for a crossbow with Drill 2 - often means you can take 1/4 to 1/2 of your opponent's unit out in an even odds battle, before he gets a chance to hit; and that makes a big difference on survivability.

Add to that the flexibility you gain - rather than taking 'defensive units' and 'offensive units', i.e. a stack of Macemen needs several pikemen with it that won't actually engage the enemy but will defend from horsed assault - and you have a much more efficient force. You can take a stack of 12 crossbows instead of having to spend 20-30% of your hammers on defenders, meaning you're lucky to have 7 macemen, and do much more damage without the risk from counter-attack.

This isn't even counting Drill's protection from collateral damage, which is huge when you consider most effective defensive actions involve doing a barrage of collateral damage to your opponent...

[wodan11]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Drill I is not even as strong as Combat I in most offensive situations.

I agree. The exception is when I have stronger units (such as when I have beelined), as mentioned.

In any event, we're repeating ourselves. I was simply responding to the asserted implication that first strike is not an offensive promotion.

It's kind of like saying, "This orchard does not have any fruit trees". I responded, "There's an orange tree right there." And you said, "Apples taste better than oranges."

Offensive units are going to generally take the city raider promotion.

Sounds like you think only melee/siege units can be offensive units, and that the only offensive actions are city attacks. Well, I disagree on both points and let's leave it at that.

Wodan

[Blaupanzer]

As long as you have iron, crossbows properly promoted are an excellent attack/defense alternative; better than pikemen who are vulnerable to the anti-melee ability of several units including crossbowmen. A well-promoted archer (10 or more combat exp) is worth the money to promote to crossbowman if some of the original promotions were other than city defense. People overlook the fact that most players only use cover promotions if they think they will attack bowmen, almost never for defense. Worth considering if you play random leaders and draw a protective soul. Thanks, AAHZ!

[ZEE]

.

[Theben]

A stack of high Drill archers/long/crossbows is still vunerable to Knights and I believe Horse Archers IIRC, as they are immune to 1st strikes...

[Modo44]

Originally posted by wodan11
That would work against the AI Modo, but seems to me it would fail in MP, especially if your neighbor has an anti-archer UU. Even if not, he would promote against archers and pillage you back to the stone age.

I guess you could bet on the anti-archer upgrade not happening, as it is too specialized, but you are probably right about pillaging. Even the dumb AI manages to get some improvements from time to time.

Originally posted by wodan11
But anyway yeah, that would probably work fine against the AI.

I think it works well, because up to monarch the AI has relatively low unit counts. Haven't tried emperor yet, so I don't know if the same can be done there (just upping the numbers, but leaving the unit ratios alone).

[couerdelion]

But I still disagree that it is an offensive promotion. If you were to divide promotions into groups then there are some defensive ones and some offensive ones. Offensive promotions are those that are principally used for units that you will be attacking with. Defensive promotion are ones that you use to make your units stronger against enemy attacks. Units can also be divided into defensive and offensive ones.

You do of course need defensive promotions and sometimes these depend on the situation and the units involved. To give an example, promoting a Spearman with Formation is a defensive promotion on a defensive unit. City Garrison, Guerrilla and Woodsman are, by definition defensive because they do not give attack bonuses. City Raider is a purely offensive promotion.

Drill is one of those strange promotions that work better for units that are already stronger than their opponent. Where odds are 50:50, combat promotions give a better improvement in combat odds. If the odds are 90:10, I think drill adds more. I believe this is because the first strike is very likely to hit and cause a decent amount of damage. For this reason, it works far better as a defensive promotion either for units defending secure tiles or for supporting units in a stack (eg the crossbow might be used in a mixed stack as a counter to maces or axes)

Snoopy, your example is loaded in favour of the non-melee units. Longbows are far more likely as defensive units in these situations. You are claiming that the CB has some strange defensive capabilities of which I am unaware. I would even claim that the CB stack is more vulnerable to the Horse Archer/Knight strike and here the First Strike bonus can be rendered obsolete.

Given the choice I would prefer for my city attackers to be Macemen CR I than Crossbows Drill I, not least because I prefer CR II Macemen over Drill III Crossbows or CR III Maceman over Drill IV Crossbows.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by couerdelion
But I still disagree that it is an offensive promotion.

Drill is one of those strange promotions that work better for units that are already stronger than their opponent. Where odds are 50:50, combat promotions give a better improvement in combat odds.

This doesn't say anything new that wasn't said in the past couple of days.

Here's something new to add to the discussion:

Drill has benefits other than improving combat odds. It effectively increases the unit's health coming out of the battle.

Ever get ~95% combat odds, and go ahead with the attack, and find out your unit won but he barely scraped through and has ~1.0 remaining health? That's less likely with Drill.

And, Drill does this even when the combat odds are ~50:50.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

How does Drill reduce damage?

Whether it does this or not, it is hardly likely to make a defensive promotion into an offensive one.

[Pinchak]

If you were to divide promotions into groups then there are some defensive ones and some offensive ones.

Drill is clearly defensive in my book. Reason being that for first strike to work, you need to win the roll.

In general, a unit usually has better terrain defence bonus when getting attacked, therefore its chance of winning the roll (and using first strike) are greater.

If your unit is much weaker than your opponent, it doesn't matter if you have 20 first strike chances or 1. Drill works best when you have the tatical advantage, but your opponent outnumbers you.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by couerdelion
How does Drill reduce damage?

When you win, you win faster, on average.

Whether it does this or not, it is hardly likely to make a defensive promotion into an offensive one.

If healing faster did not help offensive wars, then the medic promotion would not ever get used.

Wodan