I know they're coming, how to hold them?

[Lancer]

The mobs of cats thing is silly! My first boo to Civ IV.

[The Priest]

Perhaps cats should be adjusted to be more like trebs - say 2 strength, doubled against cities. This way they would also be seige weapons. This would certainly help realism - AFAIK until you got canons artillery wasn't really decisive in field battles. The cats would keep their collatery damage, so a stack could still be nasty in the field, but the cats would certainly be destroyed. Maybe this limits strategic choice/game play though by making cats into mini trebs.

[Lancer]

IRL cats were limited by the availability of rocks. Can't bring many with... Sounds silly but go outside and gather enough rocks to assault a fort. The defenders would have cleared all likely projectiles away to build the fort so it might be even more difficult than where you live. Also, if you're lucky enough to hit something with a catapult the damage would be limited, rocks don't explode.

I'd feel pretty safe in a jungle even if a catapult was firing into my area. I'd likely stand behind a tree. If everyone did this and waited until the cat ran out of rocks, I doubt there would be much effect.

I suppose the attacker could try the WWI tactic of assaulting behind a rolling barrage to bring the defenders out into the open, but this might be a little tricky for cats and they might kill more of their own.

A much superior attacker should be able to blugeon his way through that jungle, but cats would only play a psycological role at best.

Anyway that's my opinion of RL, this is a game.

[johnmcd]

Lots of cats if fair enough really, make sure you have some of your own and can counter attack when needed.

[LzPrst]

catapults in jungles and forests should have a reduced effect, but so should bowmen and gunpowder units. this is represented in the 50% defensive bonus of the defender...

(also, a fort in the jungle does not have trees to hide behind, you have walls, which, again, provide defensive bonus, though interestingly they stack...)

catapults have 2 purposes,
1. launch big rocks at defensive positions to break them down (bombard).
2. launch small rocks or even just lots of sharp metal pieces at formations of soldiers to create chaos and casualties (same as archers).

remember in those days, most battles were fought in formations on battlefields. I point to the 'field' part of the word. it's not perfect, but it will have to do for game purposes. take a shot at Medieval: Total War II, if you want to see the efficiency of certain siege weapons on the battlefield.

[Starfarer]

Originally posted by LzPrst
(also, a fort in the jungle does not have trees to hide behind, you have walls, which, again, provide defensive bonus, though interestingly they stack...)

I always assumed this represented using the jungle offensively.

As in, you have scouts and the like out there to delay incoming assaults and thin their numbers. They use the jungle for cover, which is cleared away out to a couple of hundred yards or so from the fort walls. They then retreat back into the fort for defense.

In essence, the "jungle" or "forest" bonus represents a defender's "guerrila" warfare tactics, while the fort represents having a solid, defensible "base" from which to launch sorties.

If you think in terms of ranged units, there's no reason whatsoever that a ranged unit would stand and fire until they were all killed. Thus, it's almost required that your units would go outside after them. They would then retreat back into the fort to set up a defense for the "next wave".

I may not be explaining it well, but it does make a certain level of sense to me.

[joncnunn]

The only things I think of are:

A single large stack is generally better than 2 stacks of about the same size right next to each other.

The counter unit to a Horse Archer-Elephant stack is the Pikemen; failing that tech the Spear. In either case field promotions towards the anti-horse one.
The counter stack unit of about that same era are suicide Cats with Collterial Damage promotion.

Unless the fort defensive bonus is cumulative with a jungle, the fort itself is a dubious value unless you have Longbows with City Defender promotions.

[Hauptman]

Alright lancer... This is what I would have done...

2 or 3 units in each fort. He attacks those forts, and uses up a number of cats. If he was prepared HE WILL get through no matter what you try to defend with. The point is. a couple of units will do some damage. usually more damage than you recieve, read as 4 of his units for 2 of yours... 5 or 6 for 3 of yours. Then he advances forward to his target city... You then move OTHER units into the remaining fort, because the next square he moves into should be an open square. Then you blast his weakened stack from the protection of the remaining fort after it moves out of the other...

Instead of just spearmen, hoping to kill his horses on the defense, you mix it up with catapults (if available) x-bows, horsearchers, macemen etcetera, and attack him after he weakens himself.


Horse archers do damage to catapults in a stack when they survive, they can and often do KILL cats in those flanking attacks. I used to never use mounted units much UNTIL i discovered how great flanking is.

[Lancer]

E x c e l l e n t ! I'll use that next go round. Part of the problem was that three of the world's top 4 were trying to blast their way through there. It was impossible to keep up with that level of production. One enemy stack was quickly followed by another. I got to feeling like if I gave an inch they would take a mile...which they did anyway so oh well.

I put the forts in the jungle not because it made any sense but because if the def bonuses are cummulative then you gotta do what you gotta do!

[Hauptman]

I made a game to demonstrate, and I will make a new thread as a demonstration with all the screenshots and full details as time allows (busy at work today, so may not be today.)

However here is a little teaser and a look at what i did.

His attack stack (larger than mine and not even all the units he had)



Each fort defended by...



and my reserve force in the rear to attack AFTER he moves into the open squares behind those forts.




After was all said and done, I retained control of the forts, weakened yes, but not beaten, a quick look in the world builder showed he used all his units BUT a single archer.

[Lancer]

Very nicely done! The combat and the game...thanks.

[joncnunn]

Now that looks like a good defensive deployment; screening forces on the front with substantail reserves to counter attack their surivors.

[Blaupanzer]

A fort on the hill would give better results on defense, but would give the marble to the first to have it's cultural boundary extend to that square.

[Lancer]

A fort on the marble does what for you? It's just plains, yes? Hmm. Should a quarry provide extra defense?

I'd look but I'm not in the game and have to go do stuff.

[snoopy369]

Forts in BTS provide the resource as well if it's in your CB. It's equivalent to a quarry providing extra defense, except you don't get the tile bonus if you actually work the tile.