Vile Barbarians, Destroyers and Usurpers of All That is Good and Fair in This World

[trev]

Use smaller maps, then the AI's build closer to you solving the barb problem. AI's on the levels you are talking about are easy to beat, ie Monarch or lower. Maybe higher levels than that it will not work so well.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by nbarclay
And as if all of that weren't bad enough, the unit upkeep cost mechanism puts a serious dent in the strategy of trying to build enough warriors to be genuinely safe against barbarians.

Emphasis added.

nbarclay, I dare say the above is what's exacerbating your perceived difficulties.

While building "enough warriors" to be "genuinely safe" is a strategy, it's not the best one, and ultimately it's a losing proposition. And, it's a bit gratuitous. (I don't say that in a bad way.)

What I mean is that you haven't given your reason for choosing this strategy as the one with which you attempt to reach your goal (of being "genuinely safe"). If I had to guess, I'd say your reason is that you probably don't want to have to divert from your pure builder strategy to get an early military tech (BW or AH for the most part).

Is that correct? And, if so, why don't you consider that it just may be a better option to get BW or AH than to churn out warriors?

Frankly, I totally see your frustration. You're trying to use a stream of Str 2 units to fight off Str 3 first strike units. That's the real problem here, not so much that barbs are overpowered.

Wodan

[Unimatrix11]

Well, actually, he did give the reason: He doesnt want to fall behind in the "peacefull techs" - and i assume by that religion grabbing is meant foremost.

I think this kind of trade-off is exactly what makes a higher difficulty level uhem, well, more difficult - you cant have it all. I think your (talking to nabrclay, now) frustration just shows, that not researching any military tech is not really an option (for monarch with barbs on). And as you said, building many warriors instead of a few something-elses, will cost you money - so it should be obvious, that doing the military research does not only serve your security, but also your economy and thus is a bit of a no-brainer (not meant to be insulting). Then Monarchy with barbs boils down to: Probably cant have any of the first 3 religions and early wonders will be hard to build, if at all.

Maybe, as a suggestion, you should try the exactly opposite approach. I see that part of your complaint is that the AI gets archery for free on monarch and thus the barbs are not keeping them from grabbing religions. True, one solution is to stay on monarch and turn off the barbs. Another would be, to go back to Prince and turn on "raging barbs" or trying other options, that provide you with the challange comparable to monarch. If you think the prince-AI is too vulnerable to rushes early on, make it a "house-rule" to not conduct early rushes.

To me, (normal) barbs are part of the game and it would feel like cheating to me, if they werent in. I play on "smart" maps and there you have it quite often, that you end up on a rather big island alone, with barbs and city-maintainance being your only opposition.

[Aro]

I like "raging barbarians" ON. And huge maps, pangea, with two or three civ out. A lot of space and shadows… And Barbs.

Btw, Lancer, you bring a new life to this old and tired place. Thanks for your threads, man!

[Arrian]

I like the barbs in CIV. Granted, I don't play on the higher levels and maybe that's part of it.

Generally: fog bust as much as possible. Chariots are great because they can cover lots of ground and will beat warriors, archers and axes, though with barb spears being possible they're not quite what they used to be.

Every once and a while I will run into trouble, but mostly I find barbs controllable.

I used to play with raging barbs on, and that did force me to alter my strategy. I found that it actually hurt the AI pretty badly too. Eventually the novelty wore off and I went back to standard barbs.

-Arrian

[Hauptman]

I agree that sometimes the Barbars just erk the livin poo outta me. and sometimes I get my revenge by entering the world builder and giving myself a helicoptor or two. But generally their threat is short and quite managable as long as you plan for it.

Chariots can usually hold them back until BW and axes are available, however I generally play on crowded huge maps. And if its not crowded, I usually plan for that and build the great wall, because that fixes them up real good.

Btw my first 'real' emporor non-occ game I HAD to use a helicoptor because i swear the HORDES of barbars was INCREDIBLE. Like raging barbars was on. I was goin nutz! That game ended up in the pooh box btw, cause i got gang-raped after gunpowder...

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Aro
I like "raging barbarians" ON. And huge maps, pangea, with two or three civ out. A lot of space and shadows… And Barbs.

Btw, Lancer, you bring a new life to this old and tired place. Thanks for your threads, man!

My pleasure Aro, really it is.

My three seaway cities were too far away from my cap, my tangental approach to getting the sci to fight the barbs was barely successful, but it was all a blast. Hanging on by ones teeth is great when one actually hangs on until a better day comes.

I like to found Judaism and then get to bronze and alphabet and then trade down for stuff like pottery and the early religion techs, but did it work? Not this time.

[johnmcd]

It is possible to take an early religion and archery - I do 80% of the time on Immortal.

Archery needs to be got in as one of the first four techs though I think - or Bronze as one of the first two.

Trying to fight off barbs with warriors is a mugs game though, it really is much more efficient to spend the few turns on archery and move on. I'm very much peaceful builder by nature too.

You might find the advanced start interesting as an option that helps you have fun without turning off the barbs entirely.

[Blaupanzer]

You guys going after an early religion, which civs do you favor? If you start without spiritual, getting an early religion is just a dream. Especially if you play with raging barbs ON, which I always do. It is barbs that ate a lot of the ancient civs, after all.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Lancer
I found out my waterway led to a bay enclosed by ice and started a new game.

Research ice skating.

[Cort Haus]

Good stuff, Lancer. Keep it coming.

[Lancer]

Ice skating forsooth!

Thanks Cort. That game really had something different going for it but if I ever come up with an exceptional game again I'll post it.

[LzPrst]

turn on raging barbs. run the game a few times with them on, then turn them off. it will be like you've wandered into the promised land. but as mentioned, fog-bust. and get an early military going. very often BW is my first priority, I can chop forest with it, if I don't have copper I'll see where to get it if it's nearby.

but screens!

also, I love water-ways, I'm somewhat of a fleet-fetishist. (viking heritage might be to blame) there should be another Naval Dominance AU soon...

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by Lancer
Ice skating forsooth!

Thanks Cort. That game really had something different going for it but if I ever come up with an exceptional game again I'll post it.

Love to see that. Note: Submarines will sail under that ice, and of course any ships built up there can sail thru the channel with complete safety.

[Yaga]

I'm a little boggled about these Barb threads as I've never had a serious challenge from the little tykes. Oh, they do occasionally cause some problems, but nothing pervasive as others here are suggesting.

On the off chance that my strategy might actually be of use to others, here is my standard opening:

Tech : Myst -> BW*1 -> (Archery ->) Poly -> Masonry -> Org Rel*2 -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Alphabet*3 >> Currency >> Construction

*1: If I've no easy access to Bronze, I'll pick up Archery for defense. I'll also switch to Slavery at this point.
*2: I usually get to found a religion with Org Rel. If I do I'll switch to Org Rel. If I've founded a religion *and* built Stonehenge I'll crank out the Missionaries, in anticipation of getting a Great Prophet.

*3: After Alphabet I'll trade for whatever is available, and after Currency I'll gleefully trade for cash

Cities: I'll usually keep myself to two to three cities at the start, close together, connected by rivers, with lots of wood.

Building: Wonders are key, as always. I'll aim for Stonehenge, then Great Wall, then Oracle after writing to get Alphabet for free.

Military: Through the first three cities I'll keep a Warrior and either an Axeman or an Archer in each city, with one or two other Axemen/Archers positioned between each city for mobile defense. These roaming guys will wander to the borders and take defensive positions, luring barbs to attack

Expansion: Once I have Great Wall I'll usually expand with abandon, building out as many cities as possible. If I miss Great Wall I'll keep closer to the hub of my nascent empire, focusing my workers on building roads and having a mobile defense stack, rather than larger stacks in each city.

Let me know if screen shots would be helpful.