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Representation should be changed in next patch!

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  • #1

    Representation should be changed in next patch!

    If a choice must be made between realism and game play, gameplay should always take precedence in my opinion.

    But I think we can tweak representation to be a bit more realistic.

    The extra isn't quite realistic since the large amounts of extra freedom awarded to scientists is only logical under free religion. Neither is the explanation that talented people progress easier, that would negate the need for the emancipation civic. Incentives from the elites are only logical under free market (ok perhaps a science friendly civilisation runing state property or environmentalism…).

    I propose change to .

    It’s more logical and most players would use the gold they don’t have to use on city/army/civic/colony maintenance for research anyway.

    It also gives some interesting choices concerning the Wall Street national wonder and possible combinations.

    (PS This is realistic too since major population centers aren’t always the leading in science but are more often leaders in economic development. New York could be a good example of this.)

    They would have to tweek the bonus though, but I don’t know ether that should be an increase or a decrease… since its usually better to go for science… but there could be an exploit if you were to run cast system and rapidly conquere small densely populated countries.


    So what do you guys think?
    Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
    The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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  • #2
    Frankly, don't see it as being broke, don't think it needs a fix. I think an argument for tech stagnation under Theocracy makes more "realism" sense than nerfing the science bonus for specialists under Representation, since presumably the latter represents not just the exercise of political freedom, but the aid that a constitutional government brings to society, by clearly spelling out the powers and limitations of government such that the citizens know what to expect from the law....
    "The nation that controls magnesium controls the universe."

    -Matt Groenig

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    • #3
      Ohh, I never said it was broken, I just thought it would be better this way... and it would be very easy to add to the next patch.
      Last edited by Heraclitus; November 14, 2007, 19:45.
      Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
      The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
      The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

      Comment

      • #4
        Originally posted by jkp1187
        Frankly, don't see it as being broke, don't think it needs a fix. I think an argument for tech stagnation under Theocracy makes more "realism" sense than nerfing the science bonus for specialists under Representation, since presumably the latter represents not just the exercise of political freedom, but the aid that a constitutional government brings to society, by clearly spelling out the powers and limitations of government such that the citizens know what to expect from the law....
        True. But Representation, doesn’t necessarily equate to a written constitution. Though most if not all, of the recent states with similar systems have had one. In any case I’d assume the economy would benefit more from a stable legal order than science.
        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

        Comment

        • #5
          The beakers from specalists do get ampifiied by buildings, so basically what your proposing would increase importance of market places at the expense of libraries for whoever builds the Pryaimds.

          Otherwise it's pretty equalivent, under your model you could increase the science slider to yield the roughly the same science and gold as before.
          1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
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          AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now.

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          • #6
            I find it rather amusing that Universal Sufferage (Democracy) doesn't get the "Freedom bonus" that Representation (Republic) does.
            I don't know what I've been told!
            Deirdre's got a Network Node!
            Love to press the Buster Switch!
            Gonna nuke that crazy witch!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Heraclitus


              ...But Representation, doesn’t necessarily equate to a written constitution. Though most if not all, of the recent states with similar systems have had one...
              As far as I know, the UK doesnt have a written constitution really. I derive that from a report from Harry Hopkins to Roosevelt, i think it was, saying that Churchil threw the british constitution at his head - but since it is not a written document the damage was neglectable...

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by Heraclitus


                True. But Representation, doesn�t necessarily equate to a written constitution. Though most if not all, of the recent states with similar systems have had one. In any case I�d assume the economy would benefit more from a stable legal order than science.
                Never said it has to be a "written" constitution. Just that a constitution had to exist. Otherwise, representation would not become available with the constitution technology.
                "The nation that controls magnesium controls the universe."

                -Matt Groenig

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                • #9
                  [QUOTE] Originally posted by jkp1187


                  Never said it has to be a "written" constitution. Just that a constitution had to exist (i.e., clearly spell out the powers of government and the rights of the people, which the British "constitution" does, after a fashion. Otherwise, representation would not become available with the constitution technology.

                  Arguably, the people will be able to be more creative under such a regime which would generate more knowledge (not exactly the same as "scientific research" -- people aren't sitting in their homes running experiments, but they are saying to themselves: hey, the people want x product, how can I give it to them more efficiently? Or: hey, I want to represent this perspective in my next painting, how can I do that? The success of which arguably results in an increase in knowledge.....
                  "The nation that controls magnesium controls the universe."

                  -Matt Groenig

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    [QUOTE] Originally posted by jkp1187
                    Originally posted by jkp1187


                    Never said it has to be a "written" constitution. Just that a constitution had to exist (i.e., clearly spell out the powers of government and the rights of the people, which the British "constitution" does, after a fashion. Otherwise, representation would not become available with the constitution technology.

                    Arguably, the people will be able to be more creative under such a regime which would generate more knowledge (not exactly the same as "scientific research" -- people aren't sitting in their homes running experiments, but they are saying to themselves: hey, the people want x product, how can I give it to them more efficiently? Or: hey, I want to represent this perspective in my next painting, how can I do that? The success of which arguably results in an increase in knowledge.....
                    True, but I propose we change the bonus to . You're civ can use the money it saves to be more flexible, the creativity can, in my proposal, be expressed as culture, knowledge or entrepreneurial endeavors. Much more logical than the current system, since the beakers represent only a very specific “kind” of "knowledge".
                    Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                    The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Science and wealth are sufficiently interchangeable that even if the proposed change would make sense from an abstract theoretical perspective, it wouldn't provide enough benefit to be worth giving players an extra rules change to keep track of.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nbarclay
                        Science and wealth are sufficiently interchangeable that even if the proposed change would make sense from an abstract theoretical perspective, it wouldn't provide enough benefit to be worth giving players an extra rules change to keep track of.
                        How would this represent an extra rule?

                        It would replace the an existing one, and most casual players run their science rates very high anyway, it would only be easier for them to maintain those high rates. And higher level players could take advantage of greater flexibility of choice. It would also encourage the building of commerce related structures....
                        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heraclitus


                          How would this represent an extra rule?

                          It would replace the an existing one, and most casual players run their science rates very high anyway, it would only be easier for them to maintain those high rates. And higher level players could take advantage of greater flexibility of choice. It would also encourage the building of commerce related structures....
                          I actually don't see any extra flexibility coming in here....As it is now, you can have extra science from your GPs, and thus run with a lower science rate....under your idea, you can have extra gold, and run with a higher science rate.

                          Certainly, feel free to mod it if that floats your boat, but this doesn't sound like a mod that will be in particularly high demand....
                          "The nation that controls magnesium controls the universe."

                          -Matt Groenig

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jkp1187


                            I actually don't see any extra flexibility coming in here....As it is now, you can have extra science from your GPs, and thus run with a lower science rate....under your idea, you can have extra gold, and run with a higher science rate.

                            Certainly, feel free to mod it if that floats your boat, but this doesn't sound like a mod that will be in particularly high demand....
                            Its really not modding material, it has the characteristic of a small tweak for a patch… (like the forts of vanilla, were there any mods about them? No, it was to minor to mod…) The flexibility comes from the fact that all you’re specialists are producing so you can use that gold for things other than research… Culture, espionage… but that’s minimal. In my mind the greater advantage comes from the fact that NW have a few more good combos. It would also encourage the building of commerce buildings which are currently mostly only used for happiness and health.

                            Most of all it would sacrifice an iota of game play but would add quite a bit of realism.
                            Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                            The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                            The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              The problem is (for the reasons I outlined above), I don't see it adding any realism, nor adding any gameplay utility.
                              "The nation that controls magnesium controls the universe."

                              -Matt Groenig

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