An intellectual's review

[Adam Weishaupt]

Kuciwalker had a fit when I suggested someone might think as you apparently just have. I'll kindly refer you to post #206 for clarification on the point I believe you were trying to make.

As for the rest, I'd be pretty well off if I had a nickel for every time an "engineer" said something no educated adult could plausibly believe about climate change in an online discussion. I'm not saying that Unimatrix11 has never attended a class in simulations. However, I am saying that this gives us no reason to believe him to be correct. It is more of a "trust me" argument than a "here's why" argument. Arguments accompanied by underlying reasoning can help other people to reach new understandings. Arguments accompanied by "and I'm right because I know I'm right" add much more bad attitude than good information to any worthwhile exchange of ideas.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

[ZEE]

You were very vague in describing Sim City. Hardly enough to make a point of PWNage.

If you managed every city in Civ like Sim City, managed all troops movements like Age of Empires, Used an Excel/like Spreadsheet to determine net gain and GNP...

THEN you will have a game like you describe. Civ is very vague and dumbed down compared to my example.

Your posts are entertaining to read though Mr DriX... er A. Weishaupt.

[Adam Weishaupt]

What is it with trolls and my presence here? Yet another tyke steps up to the plate thinking the purpose of the forum is "PWNage" rather than reasonable discussion. I'm not here to make anyone sound like a fool. To the degree people actually do sound like fools, it is because they are concerned about "winning" in an activity that is not actually a game. We are all losers to the degree there is tolerance for that unproductive mindset.

Case in point, AAHZ's definition of a simulation completely fails to reflect the term as it is used outside of the gaming community. Rather than make some effort to explain why he believes a simulation must surpass a particularly extreme level of detail, there is more juvenile mockery. Were we to take his position seriously, then the old Lemonade Stand program would not qualify as a microeconomic simulator because it fails to rise to the level of Capitalism Plus.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

[ZEE]

Originally posted by Adam Weishaupt
Case in point, AAHZ's definition of a simulation completely fails to reflect the term as it is used outside of the gaming community. Rather than make some effort to explain why he believes a simulation must surpass a particularly extreme level of detail, there is more juvenile mockery. Were we to take his position seriously, then the old Lemonade Stand program would not qualify as a microeconomic simulator because it fails to rise to the level of Capitalism Plus.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

ok then prove me wrong as to why Civ is a better macroeconomic simulation than my example ...

you are good at dodging points though. you always were.

[Adam Weishaupt]

I'm not sure who you think I am, but I am sure that you're not really making a valid point. Your "example" involves imposing all manner of layers of additional complexity on the existing game. A simulation is not by definition prohibitively or even hugely complex. People who actually did read the thread have already seen plenty of discussion of this point.

Still, I'll give this obvious troublemaker one earnest attempt at reasoning. A common academic activity is the "mock UN" -- a loosely structured parliamentary debate in which students represent individual nations. When the activity has any structure at all, at least some of the participants prepare or are assigned specific agenda items to be pushed through the assembly. Typically participants are not experts in the nation they are selected to represent, and the complex web of accords, trade, tensions, etc. between nations is only loosely factored into the process. Nonetheless it is a simulation of international relations as well as an exercise in parliamentary debate.

I have no cause to prove that Civ is a "better" macroeconomic simulation than some uselessly cumbersome monstrosity. My statement was that the game contains "some of the best features of a macroeconomic simulation." I did not say that it contained "some of the features of a fantasy creation that has yet to ever actually exist." When people speak of blending Civ with all sorts of additional layers of complexity, they do so without recognizing that real macroeconomic simulators tend to be much simpler than all of that.

Besides which, GDP replaced GNP long ago, and even GDP is a somewhat arbitrary value that is more useful as a political propaganda tool than an assessment of real economic conditions. When I ask people for an example of what they believe would be a macroeconomic simulator, I pretty consistently seem to be getting back these hermaphrodite camel visions that do not reflect any reality in the field of macroeconomic simulation. I still don't get what this obsession with fantastic complexity as a property of useful simulators is. Even if this wasn't a rehash of past discussion in this very thread, it still seems like it is disagreement for the sake of being disagreeable rather than disagreement because someone understanding macroeconomic simulation as a real thing speaks from understanding of those entities.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Adam Weishaupt
What is it with trolls and my presence here?

Jason, in case you didn't know, the only way to stop trolls from responding is to stop responding to trolls. At LEAST in the same thread.

Actually, I presume you know better and continue to respond to further discussion, perhaps even from "non-trolls".

[ZEE]

I'm not sure who you think I am, but I am sure that you're not really making a valid point.

OK i will come right out and say it. YOU ARE A DL AND I KNOW WHO YOU ARE. plain enouugh. here you will remember this...

My statement was that the game contains "some of the best features of a macroeconomic simulation."

going back to your original point is a good idea... as sorting through your statements about the "grassland/plains" comparison would be a bad choice to defend yourself at this stage. You are still wrong though and have failed to prove how Civ even compares to Sim City as a macroenomic simulator.

GDP is a somewhat arbitrary value that is more useful as a political propaganda tool than an assessment of real economic conditions.

To prove you are not a DL that "miraculously" appeared to our site not a few months (if that) after most of your blogs were written would be a fine argument worth reading. please commence.

Even if this wasn't a rehash of past discussion in this very thread, it still seems like it is disagreement for the sake of being disagreeable rather than disagreement because someone understanding macroeconomic simulation as a real thing that actually happens on levels often much less complex than a full game of Civ.

it is difficult to defend a position of irony as fact isnt it? Not that i haven't seen this type of thing before, mind you, but you at least get a second place for your extensive use of the thesauris.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

piece™

[Adam Weishaupt]

Well, as with the first two to pounce, I wanted to at least extend the benefit of the doubt. Everyone has a bad day now and then, so in theory AAHV may not be what he appears to be. Also, Kuciwalker was intriguing in that his attacks eventually started to be accompanied by substantive argument. I actually expanded my knowledge of Roman history because I thought one of his claims was ridiculous and a bit of research revealed to me it was a position reputable scholars had taken in the past. Certainly it is not an efficient way to learn, but it was learning nonetheless. Still, yeah, I suppose responding in this case was a bad idea. Well, see if AAHV can at least do something to prove my previous statement was wrong. In any case, I have no trouble responding to the non-trolls, as a much better chance exists of a real exchange of information with them.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

[ZEE]

Originally posted by Adam Weishaupt
Well, see if AAHV can at least do something to prove my previous statement was wrong. In any case, I have no trouble responding to the non-trolls, as a much better chance exists of a real exchange of information with them.

AAHV:

You are still wrong though and have failed to prove how Civ even compares to Sim City as a macroenomic simulator.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

piece™

[Adam Weishaupt]

I'm not even sure what a DL is in this context. In any case, the moderators have access to IP information and all the rest of it. If whoever it was was really a problem I imagine they would take action in due time (though the fact that people like Wiglaf and AAHV have such long histories here is more than a little troubling.)

As far as defending my position, so far it has only been attacked by "well, a real simulation should be like <insert ridiculously impossible thing here>." It is hard to think of ways to defend against something that fails to meet even the lowest standards of effective criticism in the first place. When this whole thing is motivated by some paranoid delusion about who I might be, it becomes all the more clear that this is a personal attack and nothing more. After all, if it was, AAHV could actually speak to why he believes macroeconomic simulators must be impractically complex rather than assuming that little turd constitutes a meaningful critique.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

[ZEE]

Originally posted by Adam Weishaupt
I'm not even sure what a DL is in this context. In any case, the moderators have access to IP information and all the rest of it. If whoever it was was really a problem I imagine they would take action in due time (though the fact that people like Wiglaf and AAHV have such long histories here is more than a little troubling.)

weak... as Ming probably helped you set this whole thing up.

As far as defending my position, so far it has only been attacked by "well, a real simulation should be like <insert ridiculously impossible thing here>." It is hard to think of ways to defend against something that fails to meet even the lowest standards of effective criticism in the first place. When this whole thing is motivated by some paranoid delusion about who I might be, it becomes all the more clear that this is a personal attack and nothing more.

so Sim City is a "ridiculously impossible thing?" You should stick to more simple and amateur simulations, like Civ, if you cannot handle such deep macroenomic activity...

After all, if it was, AAHV could actually speak to why he believes macroeconomic simulators must be impractically complex rather than assuming that little turd constitutes a meaningful critique

aww.. am i making you mad DriXy? I had to pull the curtain as this was getting a little boring. nice attack on me though...

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

piece™

[Adam Weishaupt]

The thing I referred to as impossibly complex was that crazy cocktail of games with spreadsheets thrown in for good measure. I haven't played Sim City since the 2000 incarnation, so I can't really comment as to where they're at with their economic model today. However, I can say that the focus is on urban planning, which creates an "apples and oranges" between its model and that of Civilization.

As far as this whole conspiracy theory, I doubt the staff here goes out of their way to make trouble for regular members (other than discipline when it is clear that discipline is absolutely necessary.) If you believe an administrator would set up some sort of a plot just to mess with your head, I suspect you aren't interacting with the same reality as the rest of us. I can say with a high degree of confidence that you aren't that important. I say this not by way of a put-down . . . I am not that important . . . no one here is that important.

Hoping you get back on your meds before it's too late,
Adam Weishaupt

[ZEE]

Originally posted by Adam Weishaupt
The thing I referred to as impossibly complex was that crazy cocktail of games with spreadsheets thrown in for good measure. I haven't played Sim City since the 2000 incarnation, so I can't really comment as to where they're at with their economic model today. However, I can say that the focus is on urban planning, which creates an "apples and oranges" between its model and that of Civilization.

Your ignorance of Sim City is proof that your argument of Civ as the "best macroeconomic yadda/yadda/yadda..." means you need to do more research before you grandstand like you have done here.

As far as this whole conspiracy theory, I doubt the staff here goes out of their way to make trouble for regular members (other than discipline when it is clear that discipline is absolutely necessary.) If you believe an administrator would set up some sort of a plot just to mess with your head, I suspect you aren't interacting with the same reality as the rest of us. I can say with a high degree of confidence that you aren't that important. I say this not by way of a put-down . . . I am not that important . . . no one here is that important.

this posting style is very different that your earlier blogs and OP. Time to go back to the thesaurus, as you had well over a half an hour to put something together better than this.

Hoping you get back on your meds before it's too late,
Adam Weishaupt

this proves it.

Hello Eyes of Night
and piece™

[Adam Weishaupt]

"Some of the best features" and "is the best" are not at all the same thing. For example, you have made some of the craziest accusations I have ever heard. Yet I do not believe you are the craziest person ever to have lived. Does this illustrate the distinction, or is further elaboration required?

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

[ZEE]

i am glad you have cut your eccentric posts down to a few lines. saves bandwidth to make the same point.

It seems to me that you went through too much trouble to hold Civ on such a high pedistal, dodge all arguments with quipsy one liners disguised in an effulgent manner with "sand-and-gravel" posts, and get away with all your little cheap remarks at everybody... for you NOT to be Eyes of Night or some other DL. You can get away with it, but guess what, I CAN TOO. read my title and my sig line below...

so unless you have any other point other than: This is only my opinion, not fact, and only know about Civ and not about Sim City or any other "ridiculously complex" games, then we are at an impass.

Regards,
Adam Weishaupt

piece™