Collateral and first strike

[Unimatrix11]

Surprise.

[Slade Wilson]

Originally posted by gdgrimm
Collateral is calculated before the real battle occurs.

So any type of suicide attack by a Cat will deliver collateral damage, even if the defender never gets scratched.

which is to say, you cant really use horse archers to defend against catapults?

[binTravkin]

Yes, you can kill the catapult with little damage to the horse archer, but they and other units will still suffer collateral.

[DirtyMartini]

snoopy,

I think maybe I'm just confused as to whether you're talking about RL or game mechanics.

[Quillan]

Originally posted by Slade Wilson


which is to say, you cant really use horse archers to defend against catapults?

That depends on what you mean by "Defend". If you mean "sit there and let the catapults attack my city/stack" then they're worth no more than any other 6 strength unit. If you mean "attack with the horse archers before the stack containing catapults has a chance to attack my big stack or city" then they are wonderful.

Current mechanics would go something like this.

Enemy turn: move troops into your territory at declaration of war. They cannot move along roads, so they only move 1 square or 2 squares depending on the move rating of the unit.

Your turn: attack stack containing catapults with horse archer(s). Each horse archer will cause damage (flanking) to the catapults in the stack regardless of whether the horse archer wins its fight or loses. In this regard it's similar to collateral damage.

Enemy turn: units move again.

This repeats until the enemy stack gets next to the target in question. At this point, on their next move, they'll bombard your defenses down or attack with cats to soften up your troops, following up with regular units. If you've weakened the cats already, they might have stopped to allow them some repair time or gotten strung out and separated.

Regardless, you do not park horse archers in the target fort or city waiting on the cats; you go out and attack the stack containing the cats with the horse archers. That's where the flank attack benefits come.

[guermantes]

Thanks Quillan, I have always wondered what I was "supposed to do" in order to counter cats in a stack...

[Petrus2]

Originally posted by Quillan
Regardless, you do not park horse archers in the target fort or city waiting on the cats; you go out and attack the stack containing the cats with the horse archers. That's where the flank attack benefits come.

I know, "it depends", but wouldn't it be better to let the enemy stack get next to your city. Then bombard HIM with your cats and trebs, weakening his infantry and mounted units. Then hit with your horse archers, weakening his cats at the same time you kill or wound his infantry/horse. Then use SOME of your regular units to kill his weakened forces before they can repair, making sure you save enough to resist his attack.

Or am I missing something?

[Quillan]

I prefer to start the moment he gets into my borders, as his advance is usually stopped there for a turn. Assuming prior to railroad, as we're discussing catapults here, I won't be able to hit with everything I have on the first turn; it'll take time to get there. So I hit it with what I have, which will probably be a couple of catapults and a couple of mounted troops. In all probability, he'll split up, with the undamaged troops continuing to advance towards my city, a couple of units breaking off to try and destroy any of my weakened units which withdrew or won the previous round.

Here I can pick off the damaged units, or hit the advancing stack again. If I hit the advancing stack, I'll stall more units and split them up more, hopefully leaving the final stack too weak to take my city, and allowing me time to mop up the invasion.

[Slade Wilson]

That depends on what you mean by "Defend". If you mean "sit there and let the catapults attack my city/stack" then they're worth no more than any other 6 strength unit. If you mean "attack with the horse archers before the stack containing catapults has a chance to attack my big stack or city" then they are wonderful.

I was under the impression that the OP was referring to a vanila game hence the lack of flanking and emphasis on first strikes, which would be only relevant in the case of the horse archers defending. Only outside BTS is there any question of horse archers countering catapults or not....

[jnh140]

speaking of first strikes, I've always heard about people piling on the drill promotions to make units more survivable. do first strikes hit on the offense, or only on defense?

[snoopy369]

FS work by the following:

Battle begins
FS = (FSA-FSD)
If FS is positive, Attacking unit gets # of hits equal to FS. If FS is negative, Defending unit gets # of hits equal to -(FS).
Then rest of battle is done one hit at a time.

So in a battle between two FS units, the FS cancel out until the point at which one unit has no FS left.

[Jaybe]

To clarify Quillian's description of the process:
The horse archer flanking attack vs. catapults (and other flanking attack-capable units vs. their appropriate siege) only applies IF the horse unit survives the attack by winning or withdrawing. If it dies, no siege is damaged.