Collateral and first strike

[binTravkin]

Do catapults do collateral if the opposing unit kills them before they make a strike (e.g. the opposing unit having drill IV and substantially more strength)?

[gdgrimm]

Collateral is calculated before the real battle occurs.

So any type of suicide attack by a Cat will deliver collateral damage, even if the defender never gets scratched.

[Cyrus The Mike]

Something that I don't get though. why is it that the cats in the opposing group isn't affected when they are much slower than any other land baced unit? I mean, cats don't have the GREATEST accuacy. so a buntch of horse archers and chariotiers can out menuver the flying rocks. yes its a little harder for axman but they still have reflexes enough to suffer minimal casualties.

[Jaybe]

I can only assume that siege is ammune to siege-induced collateral damage for balance reasons. Now that there are flank attacks to counter siege, it's not too bad.

[snoopy369]

I believe it is to counter the "My cat group got the first shot off, and killed your cat group off" effect. Having no collateral damage on cats (etc.) means both sides get to dent the other side (typically the defender gets the first salvo in, and then the attacker).

[Jaybe]

Having no collateral damage on cats (etc.) means both sides get to dent the other side (typically the defender gets the first salvo in, and then the attacker).

But in an artillery (or other siege) duel, the defender SHOULD get the first salvo in, should they not?

[snoopy369]

In a game of Civ, both sides need to be able to fire, or the catapult is too strong of a defender's weapon and unbalances the game. Note that the defender still gets the first attack, just that it's important for the attacker to still be able to retaliate.

Gameplay >>>> realism, as usual...

[binTravkin]

Not universally. Artilleries since WWI are well known for shoot-and-move tactics being very effective as if you stayed from where you shot, you got the defenders strike back.

[rah]

Yes, the flank attacks have evened it up a bunch.
Quite a surprise in our first couple of MP games to those that weren't used to it yet.

[Quillan]

I just wish the mounted troops got flank attack bonuses against all the lower artillery pieces as well as the current tech ones. As it stands I need to keep some horse archers around as long as my foes maintain their obsolete catapults, and knights for trebuchets, because cavalry won't flank them. They only flank cannons.

[Jaybe]

... cavalry ... only flank cannons.

Mine don't. I've modified the xml so they flank the previous ones also (including tanks*). But I'm on my first 3.13 game, so I haven't a conclusion yet.

*My armored units are not city raider promotable. I transfered that to gunpowder units.

[guermantes]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Having no collateral damage on cats (etc.) means both sides get to dent the other side (typically the defender gets the first salvo in, and then the attacker).

But in an artillery (or other siege) duel, the defender SHOULD get the first salvo in, should they not?

Does this refer to actual game behaviour? If so, I had no idea that if I attack a catapult with a catapult the other side gets a 'first strike' at me. ??

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I believe it is to counter the "My cat group got the first shot off, and killed your cat group off" effect. Having no collateral damage on cats (etc.) means both sides get to dent the other side (typically the defender gets the first salvo in, and then the attacker).

I don't get this. I'm not trying to be smarmy, but how can the defender get the first catapult salvo in? They're the defender, they're being attacked, and the catapults in the stack may or may not be the unit chosen by the game mechanics to defend. Within the context of an individual combat, the defending unit (catapult or not) may get the first "shot" (I don't know the inner workings of the combat engine). Even if the do, that has no bearing on the catapult collateral damage issue -- defending catapults do not cause collateral damage to an attacking stack even if they are the chosen defender. In fact, they only "see" one individual attacker at a time.

I do agree with the underlying logic behind catapult collateral invulnerability. Catapults must be spared collateral damage so that they may still effectively retaliate in a subsequent counterattack. It really prevents a "my catapults attacked first and collaterally damaged your catapults to the point they were useless in counterattack" effect. Which, I agree, would unfairly favor the attacker.

DM

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


I don't get this. I'm not trying to be smarmy, but how can the defender get the first catapult salvo in?
DM

Ever used a catapult in RL? They move slowly, and have to be set up to work. They're not like modern mobile artillery. The 'defender' per se - which is not referring to the unit being attacked, but rather the defending nation, ie the city owner in most cases - will always get a first shot before the attacker (unless they have some absurd rules of battle) as the attacker moves in.

I think you're misunderstanding and thinking we're talking about 'defending unit' which is not the case.

[Kataphraktoi]

All things equal a defender can always fire before the attacker can, as the attacker by definition is entering the area of the defender.