Finance!

[jnh140]

Getting back into Civ 4 after a good break.

Took more or less a slave master approach; so obviously my empire was growing much faster than the infrastructure (minus roads) and tech could support. However, completely decimating all of my opponents and taking most of their prime real estate makes me the biggest, meanest, and most-feared dog on the block.

I've even managed to turn the remnants of their empires into essentially subserviant christian states.

However, i'm poor. Really, really poor. 0% research and losing units to cash flow issues poor.

I only build farms on specials. Money-making specials? Utilized. Trading gpt for extra resources. Cottage spam.


What is the problem? Did i simply grow over too much area for my lack of versailles\forb city? Too many units? Too many cities in general? What do you guys do to really get that commerce flowing?

[snoopy369]

Probably a combination of too many cities and too few courthouses. You may also not have big enough cities - how big are they? If they're size 3 or 4 they're not making enough to pay for themselves, cottage spam or not Use farms on regular grassland to grow them up to 5 or 6 quickly, then cottage over the farms (if needed).

[DaveV]

Key techs for commerce: currency and code of laws. With currency, you can build Wealth and get cash from hammer-heavy cities instead of putting yourself deeper in the hole by building more units. Code of laws has two benefits: courthouses, as Snoopy mentioned, and caste system, which lets you turn extra food into merchant specialists.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Currency will bring in a minimum of one gold per city for the extra trade route.

[Jaybe]

Since you are "Trading gpt for extra resources," you obviously have currency. Take your high-production cities that aren't producing priority items and build GOLD! Or several smaller cities that aren't building courthouses and build gold.

[ben04]

Work at least as many cottages as cities and you will be fine. A cottage is build faster and brings more than a courthouse.

When it comes to beakers always look at the total beaker output and not what the percent is set to. Large empires will nearly always have a lower percent setting but may still produce more beaker than a small one running at 100%.

Try to keep it at at least 10%. If cities are still in anarchy then a couple of turns at 0% are also allowed. If you are however stuck at 0% then build science in your cities and go for currency. The extra trade route should in most cases be enough to make you go back to 10%.

[Blake]

Techs are highly important.

Currency for Marketplaces and +1 trade route is quite possibly THE most important tech. Build Wealth is great too.
Code of Laws for Courthouses is second most important, or the most important for Organized leaders.

The important thing about getting these builds is this:
At some point, you literally can't afford to build any more units with your cities. At that point you need to build either money making infrastructure or Wealth/Research.

In the longer run for larger empires, always head towards Banking ASAP, so you can add Grocers and Banks. These will help your research more than Universities.

[snoopy369]

Courthouses are at the start less than a cottage, but don't forget that a courthouse reduces your cost, while a cottage offsets it; sort of like a deduction as opposed to a credit on your income tax. Courthouse savings is multiplied by your inflation percent; so you might save 3gpt from the courthouse initially, but at 150% inflation that's really 7.5 GPT

[Blake]

The other thing about courthouses is that costs ramp up QUICKLY.

Sure that might be only 5 upkeep now, but add a few cities to your empire, and a bunch of population to the city, and it's suddenly 12 upkeep... and then increased by inflation.

Because adding both more cities and population increases city upkeeps, courthouses in existing cities can be seen as a way to allow for further expansion without breaking the bank... When courthouses are a less wise investment is when there is no more scope for further expansion, because then your upkeeps wont be increasing as quickly as if you were still expanding.

Hopefully that makes sense... the crux of the issue is, that adding a new city anywhere, increases upkeep in all existing cities too, and courthouse eliminate half of that added upkeep, so courthouses in existing cities make new cities more affordable...

[jnh140]

Thanks for the tips!

Things seem better. Re-prioritizing currency + code of laws >>> metal casting seems to have been a step in the right direction.

I've still: Never used a specialist unless it was placed automatically by my city

and cities seems to still all end up multipurposed. I'm pretty good at feeling the lay of the land, for say, an ironworks city, but i never end up with financial hubs (financial hub = population center?)
This is clearly my fault.

Following with what other threads are telling me, I have removed my importance on wonders. This behavior is left from civ 2, where every single solitary game was based loosly on: LOL BUILD THE PYRAMIDS LOL.
I also find myself trying to exploit zone of control. I miss zone of control.

[Blake]

and cities seems to still all end up multipurposed. I'm pretty good at feeling the lay of the land, for say, an ironworks city, but i never end up with financial hubs (financial hub = population center?)
This is clearly my fault.

This isn't a problem.

Do try and get an optimal Heroic Epic and Ironworks city, but otherwise you don't need to care. Just put wallstreet in your best gold city (ie shrine) and Oxfords in your best science city (often capital), there's no need to specialize for them.

[Game-God]

You might have a look at the following links to get a good idea on using your cities better and also to "mix" the economic values of both the cottage and specialists economy.

Then read the second link also, not so much for the fighting stuff, but to get an idea of what the writer has to say about the economic upevil that might happen to your economy(just like your finding out already).

The second one is a pdf and you can print it if needed then.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=241565

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5966344

I would type the stuff myself but whats the point when so many have already done the work? (and actually made sense)

[couerdelion]

Don’t forget Open Borders for foreign trade routes. The +1 trade routes from currency is pretty pathetic if it only gives +1 commerce per city. I remember once playing Imp/Cre on an island and figured that the Great Lighthouse would fuel my expansion for a long time. It later turned out that there was no direct coastal link to any other civs and I was stuck with internal trade routes.

[jnh140]

I'm really getting a grip on commerce; once my wars end I get right back on top.

I'm still a bit mystified by specialists; I try to work tiles rather than use them. Never used them in Civ 2 either; until every tile on the fat cross was worked.

I feel like if I assign specialists, I'm stagnating my cities-- especially for food. Should I be farming more early game and pound specialists?

[snoopy369]

Consider them as a part of the whole.

2 citizens working a regular grassland forest: 4 food, 2 hammers.

1 citizen working a farmed floodplain, 1 citizen as a science specialist: 4 food, 3 lightbulbs, 3 GSps, one trade (from the FP).

It's a matter of which is worth more to you. Early in the game, the three lightbulbs are worth more than putting the science specialist on a 2/1/0 or 2/0/1 tile. Later in the game you have villages and towns, so the 2/0/5 tile is of course worth more - unless you have rep in which case it might not be. Just be aware of the tradeoff in any given city, as a specialist is 'working' certainly; he's just working a non food bearing tile.

Imagine each citizen as (+food +prod +trade), so a breakdown:

Grasslands forest: 0 food (+2, -2), 1 hammer, 0 trade, so that citizen is 'worth' 1 hammer net.
Plains forest: -1F, +2h, 0T
Floodplains: +1F,0H,+1T
Scientist: -2F,0H,+3 or 6T (B), +3GSPs

It depends on the city and the situation whether -2F/+3T/+3GSPs is better than 0/+1/0/0.

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Blake

In the longer run for larger empires, always head towards Banking ASAP, so you can add Grocers and Banks. These will help your research more than Universities.

I misread this