AI Cultural Victories are EVIL

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by wodan11

In every single culture victory game I've gone for, I don't think I have ever run out of things to make. Usually there's too much to do!

The point is that you can't keep building culture buildings with your cities The main problem is that you basically have to decide "Wonder city" or "non Wonder City" early on. You can't realistically build major cultural wonders with a city that is still going to have ultimately 80+ commerce from towns (as elsewhere noted it's actually as much as 7 per tile in free speech, so even higher). You can get 35-50 per city with just normal cultural buildings (raw), and the 80-100 from commerce plus a few specialists etc. will give you much more raw output than wonders, unless you have a TON of wonders.

Of course at a low level you can get all those wonders, but I'm assuming you're playing a game where you're either not the tech leader or not by much, and have plenty of competition for wonders. It's pointless to discuss strategy when you are able to win easily after all

To consistently get wonders to the tune of 100 raw culture per turn, you would need a heavy hammer city. (I'm sort of excluding the three 50% bonus happiness generators, as you generally can get those anyway.) That city will not be able to be 'turned over' into a heavy commerce city, and therefore has to build most of its culture by itself. You just don't get as much usually that way... and every turn that a hammer is making something that does not contribute to culture, it is a wasted hammer. You should be building other things (mil units, missionaries, etc.) elsewhere once you are in the culture end game mode of 100% culture slider.

Also on the missionary side - yes, of course you build your missionaries elsewhere. You should have five or six good cities by the time any real missionarying is needed - and remember that you don't really have to get those 50% boosters until quite late, because the far majority of their culture is generated in the last 50 turns or less. Until then your three cities are just commerce (or GA) generators and nothing else, while slowly building up what they need to succeed in the late game. Get them as big as possible, work as many cottages as possible, and you will succeed

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369


The point is that you can't keep building culture buildings with your cities

Yes, you can. I just said that I don't think I've ever run out of culture buildings to make, when I was going for a culture victory. You've got 5-6 temples, 5-6 monasteries, 5-6 cathedrals, library, university, theatre, obelisk, etc. Plus your choice of 40 or so wonders.

The main problem is that you basically have to decide "Wonder city" or "non Wonder City" early on. You can't realistically build major cultural wonders with a city that is still going to have ultimately 80+ commerce from towns (as elsewhere noted it's actually as much as 7 per tile in free speech, so even higher).

I've been pretty clear in stating that I don't usually go the Town route... instead I do heavy production (to make buildings/wonders) and then farm over to run all artists.

If you're going Towns, then I agree that none of your "big 3" cities will be able to build ANY wonders, really. Not if they want to have all the culture buildings (especially 5-6 cathedrals, which are critical).

You can get 35-50 per city with just normal cultural buildings (raw), and the 80-100 from commerce plus a few specialists etc. will give you much more raw output than wonders, unless you have a TON of wonders.

What's your basis for that conclusion? Maybe I'm just dense. I don't see the leap of logic there.

Say we assume that the "Town" version can make all the same buildings, to get the base 35 culture we have agreed upon. That might be a big assumption, because it's going to be very difficult for the Town version to build all that and grow 15-20 cottages to Towns at the same time. But, let's say it can.

So, now we have 80 commerce from the "Town" version, which we need to match by raw culture from the "Wonder / Artist" version.

So, let's look at what raw culture the "Wonder / Artist" version can produce. I mentioned Parthenon, that's 20 right there. Let's toss out a few more. Oracle, 18; Hermitage x2; Sistine, 10; plus another dozen early ones for 12-16 each; plus another dozen mid-game ones for 6-12 each. Mix and match however it bets works out in the game. The point is you have a heavy production city so you can crank them out like there's no tomorrow. Let's say that each of your big3 cities can only make 7-8 wonders, which is low in my experience (usually I make 10 or so per city). An average of only 10 culture each wonder makes that 70-80 right there.

But we also get artists. Each farmed tile adds +2 food post Biology, so that's one specialist for 4 (6) culture. Let's say you only have 12 tiles which can be farmed (the other 9 are hills) but even the hills can take windmills which become a half specialist. So, that's 16 extra artists that the Town version isn't running. x 4 (6) equals 64 (96) extra culture.

So, the wonder / artist version of a culture city will make between 124- 176 base culture, in addition to the 35 from buildings. Compared to the 80-100 from the Town version, and hopefully you can see why I'm so convinced the wonder / artist version is the way to go.

Of course at a low level you can get all those wonders, but I'm assuming you're playing a game where you're either not the tech leader or not by much, and have plenty of competition for wonders. It's pointless to discuss strategy when you are able to win easily after all

Agreed. I usually play on Emperor, so hopefully that gives some indication that it's hardly a cakewalk.

To consistently get wonders to the tune of 100 raw culture per turn, you would need a heavy hammer city.

Yes, exactly.

(I'm sort of excluding the three 50% bonus happiness generators, as you generally can get those anyway.) That city will not be able to be 'turned over' into a heavy commerce city,

Again, I'm not turning it over into a heavy commerce city... I'm farming it into an all-artist city running Caste System.

and therefore has to build most of its culture by itself. You just don't get as much usually that way... and every turn that a hammer is making something that does not contribute to culture, it is a wasted hammer.

I don't agree or disagree with this, but it's not what I'm suggesting, so it's kind of moot.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

A heavy production city (50+ raw hammers) cannot easily be farmed into a heavy artist city. They have two very distinct requirements.

I'll not disagree that you could do a (one) big building city; but I think it's easier to do towns, and safer. Add to that the fact that it's a lot more 'productive' for the civ, because most of the cultural wonders aren't that helpful, and on the other hand your town city will be massively producing science/cash the whole time. You'll also heavily pollute your GA points with non-GA points (and don't forget that buildings count 50% of the 'which GP do you get' no matter how many artists you have).

I don't think you can easily get your 16 artists in a city like this just from biology, also. It takes far too long to grow it up that large... 8 artists I could see, but I don't think I see 16 artists (with a 36 core population needed for that, in the city you suggest!!). Not without having waited longer that the town method would take anyway

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
A heavy production city (50+ raw hammers) cannot easily be farmed into a heavy artist city. They have two very distinct requirements.

Your "typical" city yes, but keep in mind that you get to pick the best 2 such sites anywhere near your starting location.

I'll not disagree that you could do a (one) big building city; but I think it's easier to do towns, and safer.

Well, I've done it both ways, and I think it's actually easier, not harder. I'd encourage you to try the other way (that you haven't tried yet) and let us know how it works out.

Add to that the fact that it's a lot more 'productive' for the civ, because most of the cultural wonders aren't that helpful

If by "cultural wonders" you mean Sistine etc, then yes, I agree. However, by "cultural wonders" I would take that to mean everything from Notre Dame to Hagia Sophia to Colossus to Parthenon to Oracle, all of which are extremely useful. So, personally, I would say that "some of the cultural wonders aren't that helpful". OTOH I won't turn my nose up at something like Chichen Itza... you never know when defense will come in useful.

, and on the other hand your town city will be massively producing science/cash the whole time.

This is a good point. Whether it balances out with the added culture you get by going the wonder route? Hard to say.

You'll also heavily pollute your GA points with non-GA points (and don't forget that buildings count 50% of the 'which GP do you get' no matter how many artists you have).

Somewhat but not really. I said early on (you've probably forgotten by now, no fault to you) that one of my big 3 cities is always a Great Artist GP Farm. This city always gets everything that produces Artist points, plus it's running artists (while the other cities are not running specialists at all) and gets the National Epic as soon as possible.

In any event, a Great Prophet or Great Engineer or two is still helpful... you'll surely have started at least one religion of your own, so a Shrine will keep you floating at higher research rate, and a GE can pop a critical wonder such as Sistine.

I don't think you can easily get your 16 artists in a city like this just from biology, also. It takes far too long to grow it up that large... 8 artists I could see, but I don't think I see 16 artists (with a 36 core population needed for that, in the city you suggest!!). Not without having waited longer that the town method would take anyway

Each city has a couple of food resources. Again, you get to pick the absolute best 3 city sites. So it doesn't take as long as you might think. If this is a big concern then with BtS you can found Sushi.

Anyway, I've given enough of my strategy that people are welcome to try it. Whether any single person finds it more enjoyable than the Town route, is personal preference. All I would suggest is to reserve judgment until after you try it. And, if you have concerns such as Snoppy, then think of the best way to address those concerns. I think you'll find that it is either not as big of an issue as you thought, or else that it is not an insurmountable concern if you take the proper steps.

Good luck!!

Wodan

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by CyberShy
No wonders?
Early wonders do a lot for culture on the long term.
not to mention the 'happy resource' generating wonders that give +50% culture!!!

The key problem is with the third culture city. If you are building wonders, you are unlikely to have three cities with early wonders that will be generating a lot of culture at the end.

I would however make the distinction between early and late wonders (for this purposes early ones are those that will double their culture value by the end of the game). Wonders like Notre Dame, Angkor Wat and Sistine Chapel are just about there so could feasibly be built by a third wonder city - the first being the capital and the second being a production high second/third city.

One key difference is in the nature of the cities needed for early wonders. Unless you have specials like cows or strategic resources, production can only really come from hills. Later in the game, the high production cities will often be those with grasslands or plains and a decent food supply. If we are talking about a city that can build early wonders, then generally not be good at generating either commerce or supporting artists.

The exception to this would be a city with food sources, floodplains and hills. This is good for early and late production and will also be able to support a bunch of artist specialists.

[wodan11]

Good points couerdelion but as I said you scout around and thus you find the city sites that meet your requirements.

Also, I don't think there's as much of a distinction between an "early production city" and a "mid/late production city". Early, your city size is capped by health. So, you can only work so many mines.

In other words, the tiles you don't work in the early game can be whatever YOU think you want to optimize that city for the mid/late game.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

I'm not so sure about finding the sites that you want. Your first few cities are going to be constrained a little by

a) What you can see available
b) What you can reasonably safely defend.
c) The more immediate needs of the civ.

You are also going to found cities in places where you acquire special resources because those are the ones easiest to develop. The top priorities for early cities will be food and/or production – so that you can quickly get settlers and workers out.

If you've already settled on a cultural win then you might perhaps pick and choose more carefully but I am not that good to have made the decision so soon.

Btw, I’m sure you mean happiness cap. An unhealthy population is usually a productive one

[wodan11]

Well, you don't want your "first few cities" to be your big 3 (except perhaps the capitol) anyway. As you say, it's important to kick-start your civ. And, remember when I said that ideally you want your big3 to be making nothing but culture buildings and wonders.

Here's what I do. It may work for you; if so, great. But you might find a different path as well; it's not like I have all the answers. YMMV.

My first warrior/scout will be able to see the immediate area by the time I have a settler. If I see a good spot for one of my big3, then I save it, and send the settler to a different site but still a good "immediate needs" city site.

My next settler can be one of my big 3, or I might wait for the settler after that. Either way, I will have scouted more terrain, and will be able to gauge when I can safely defend and expand as best suited.

As for deciding on a cultural win... part of that depends on having good city sites. Just like choosing between a SE or CE, you really need to see the terrain before you can make a firm decision.

And no, I don't mean the happy cap. My big3 cities are cranking out temples and cathedrals, remember? Occasionally you might hit the happy cap but that's only temporary until you get a new religion to spread. This goes back to one of Snoopy's concerns... how do you get those cities so big? Simple, really... they have slow steady growth the whole game, and they aren't slowed by the happy cap, not really.

Wodan

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by wodan11
Each city has a couple of food resources. Again, you get to pick the absolute best 3 city sites. So it doesn't take as long as you might think. If this is a big concern then with BtS you can found Sushi.

Sid's Sushi can be great for CVs, as spreading it can generate large base culture in the late game by spreading it into the 3 Legends, without needing any hammers from the cities themselves. In a quick spin with Augustus, I managed to peak at 50 base cpt from Sushi on an archipelago map, and settled around 45 cpt after the AI cut down some trades.

Medicine's a handy grab from Biology anyway, so it's a good fit. The only trouble can be the GM required to found it, but it shouldn't be too hard to get one. Spread it to the AI and it can be almost cash neutral (pre-patch).

But the most attractive feature of a CV for me is the varied routes to get there: religion based, wonder based, cottage based, or specialist based.

[couerdelion]

Wodan,

Personally I find cultural victories too boring. So much so that I decided to try for a diplo victory in my current (two turns left). That failed twice so I just declared war on Stalin to pass the time. It's unlikely that I will go for this sort of victory unless everything else is off.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "best" sites. Given that any exist, I would assume that the idea of saving it may not work if it is a good site. Why wouldn't a rival civ found there since they can expand more quickly than you can.

[Veritass]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Wodan,

Personally I find cultural victories too boring. So much so that I decided to try for a diplo victory in my current (two turns left). That failed twice so I just declared war on Stalin to pass the time. It's unlikely that I will go for this sort of victory unless everything else is off.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "best" sites. Given that any exist, I would assume that the idea of saving it may not work if it is a good site. Why wouldn't a rival civ found there since they can expand more quickly than you can.

I have done the same thing when getting bored hitting Enter and waiting for a cultural victory. Perhaps we can get the AI to tune in a little faster to see someone heading for a cultural victory, and take preventive action.

In all my cultural victories, I have ended up using a combination of disparate cities, and most often including my capital. The cities that have good production can produce several wonders throughout the game, and the ones that are pure food can get their culture through hired artists. The cities that have neither abundant food nor abundant production value probably won't be part of your big three, but they will be enough to pump out the units to protect your big three.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Wodan,

Personally I find cultural victories too boring.

Well, I can't help you there. Except to point out that a Cultural victory is easiest if you have exactly 9 cities. This almost always requires an early war of expansion.

So much so that I decided to try for a diplo victory in my current (two turns left). That failed twice so I just declared war on Stalin to pass the time. It's unlikely that I will go for this sort of victory unless everything else is off.

Well, the late game of a cultural victory is sort of like the late game of a space victory. Often you simply end up hitting //next turn// quite a bit. If you like to have a lot of interaction every single turn, then nothing is going to placate you like a conquest victory will.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "best" sites.

We've been talking about having 4-5 hills, several food resources, production resources (quarry and mine boosters), fresh water.

Given that any exist, I would assume that the idea of saving it may not work if it is a good site. Why wouldn't a rival civ found there since they can expand more quickly than you can.

First off, you're not saving it forever. Just until your 3rd-6th cities.

And, if a rival civ squeezes in, see above (about having 9 cities). That's why the game has Axemen.

Wodan

[wodan11]

All this talk has gotten me in the mood, so last night when I randomly got Alex as my leader for my first 3.13 game, I decided to go for a cultural win.

It's now... heck, I don't know what year it is. Anyway, I have 7 cities, a settler coming and a "backfill" city site ready for my 8th, and a tasty barb city for my 9th. I pinned Shaka in with an early city so I had the room to expand. I also founded Taoism early and that's spread to everybody except Shaka (I went out of my way to spread my 2nd religion to him so he's the oddball on our continent). That gives everybody a "worse enemy" than me, which will give me peace to expand and build wonders. I'm not neglecting my military though... I've got my Phalanxes going and all the AIs have open border with me, so they can see my defenses.

My GP Farm is churning along. I put Parthenon and Zeus in it, plus National Epic, and something else, don't remember. It's getting all the "Artist" GPP wonders. My capitol got Stonehenge (I wasn't counting on that but lucked out), Apostolic, Oracle, and I think one other "Prophet" GPP wonder. Which is fine because I have founded all 3 religions on my continent. I have missed 2 of them (other continents) and 2 are still open.

My 3rd city is on the coast (on purpose) and has built the Pyramids (was chopped), Easter Island statues, Great Lighthouse, and something else, don't remember.

I got a couple of Great Merchants which I wasn't terribly happy with, but I used them to lightbulb Currency and something else. So that was fine as it got my empire going faster. I also got 2 Great Prophets so far. My GP Farm is now outproducing GPP so from here on out I should get almost all Artists.

All my other cities have a Library and are running 1-2 scientists each. My GP Farm is making a good bit of science as well (from running Artists).

All in all I'm doing really well. I wish I could have more religions, so I'm probably going to have to take steps to get them. Prioritize Philo and Divine Right, and maybe even prioritize Astronomy and make some cities on islands or other continents to get their religions, whip missionaries, then change them to a colony.

Personally I don't find this boring at all, despite the lack of any wars so far. Pretty soon Shaka will either get uppity and attack someone of the Taoist nations (me, Genghis, Lincoln, Izzy) or else one of them will attack him first and demand I join in (which I'll certainly do to get the diplo benefit). Even though I'm closest to him he's no threat to me (because I pinned him in and he's half my size).

Wodan

[wodan11]

By the way, my capitol is one of my big3, and while waiting for wonder techs it had the time to churn out a couple of warriors, a couple of settlers, and a worker or two. It's a production powerhouse, which is exactly what I want.

My second city went for a site which had both stone and marble, which was a huge stroke of luck. That city has Barracks and is making mostly military interspersed with settlers and workers. The occasional building such as Library.

My third city was the second of my big 3, on the coast, and the first thing it did was whip Pyramids. Then, two work boats, Lighthouse, Great Lighthouse, and on from there.

My GP Farm (last big3 city) was my 6th city, I think. I put it off because I didn't have any "Artist" wonders to work on and I wanted to grow my empire first. As soon as Parthenon became available I founded it. I chopped Parthenon and started it on Zeus.

Wodan

[couerdelion]

Wodan,

Do you play on settler level or something?

Stonehenge, Oracle, Pyramids, Parthenon and Great Lighthouse are a lot of early game wonders even if you do get lucky with the resources.

Not quite sure how you are whipping Parthenon and Pyramids. Particularly since you talk of whipping the Pyramids with a brand new city. I thought that a Pyramid whip would need something like 10-15 citizens (ie size 20-30 city)!!!!