Quechua pin = Deity win

[Jaybe]

Somewhat Artificial??!
It's a bragging point, with perhaps a little insight as to how to pursue a simple land war.

REAL Civ involves more than a simple wargame, even at high difficulty.

[jbp26]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Somewhat Artificial??!
It's a bragging point, with perhaps a little insight as to how to pursue a simple land war.

ok i was trying to be nice. by "somewhat artificial" i mean its basically a "rigged game".

[Drachen]

Morning Jbp26

I think you make a legitimate point about observing AI behavior. It is limited to inferences derived from the state you find the AI when you arrive and what it does while pinned. No universal applicability there but I’ve gained a bit of knowledge nonetheless and I’ll take what I can get this early in my studies.

As to your second point this may just be a misunderstanding due to my not stating the game conditions. The emperor game in which I used the Quechua pin was on a standard map, epic speed, temperate, normal number of opponents, i.e., not a custom game, and whatever starting position that was generated.

I make no claim that a Quechua pin is some sort of uber strategy that will always be useful. It’s just one more gambit for people to consider and it happened to work in that particular game. I find the pin to be rather reliable when dueling but surely there are other strategies which could be used as well. It won’t win 100% of the time but it’s still useful to consider. Rushing has been around as long as RTS games have been played. Is it suddenly an illegitimate strategy? The fact that it’s not useful on all settings doesn’t negate its value. Are we to say that a strategy must be valid across all setting to be worth knowing about, playing with, or using occasionally?

I would love to hear about other strategies used to beat BTS deity but I just haven’t been seeing them posted. I’d much rather see the thread move in that direction. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to make some concrete suggestions.

[jbp26]

Originally posted by Drachen
As to your second point this may just be a misunderstanding due to my not stating the game conditions. The emperor game in which I used the Quechua pin was on a standard map, epic speed, temperate, normal number of opponents, i.e., not a custom game, and whatever starting position that was generated.

fair enough. your test parameters are reasonable- pulling it off on deity means that, under the right (very specific) conditions, its a powerful gambit. i was only disagreeing with it being a true deity victory, know what i mean. no offense was intended.

It won’t win 100% of the time but it’s still useful to consider. Rushing has been around as long as RTS games have been played. Is it suddenly an illegitimate strategy? The fact that it’s not useful on all settings doesn’t negate its value. Are we to say that a strategy must be valid across all setting to be worth knowing about, playing with, or using occasionally?

no way, definitely not. there is no uber strategy for civ4. i wasn't arguing with that at all. actually even a duel map by itself isn't rigged, per se, but my only qualm was that a duel pangaea puts you in aposition where you can rush the AI before any of its bonuses really matter. a duel continents map versus a deity AI, for instance, would be a totally different experience.

I would love to hear about other strategies used to beat BTS deity but I just haven’t been seeing them posted. I’d much rather see the thread move in that direction. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to make some concrete suggestions.

a great place to read these is realms beyond civ, they have weird variant games but the solutions are interesting. also a lot of really good players (sulla, blake) have personal websites with detailed DARs about some games, including some at deity level. very interesting reads, lots of great strategy.

[Jaybe]

Realms Beyond Forums - Civilization
What are the other links, jbp26?

[binTravkin]

under the right (very specific) conditions, its a powerful gambit.

The more conditions there are the less good some tactic actually is.

[TriMiro]

On a somewhat related matter, do you guys know how the score at the end of the game is determined? I played on a duel pangea with Ottomans vs French. I was trying to figure out how the early rush works and when the time for attack came I had 5 axeman he had an archer and a couple of warriors. I don't think I learned anything from this game, however, when I won it gave me huge score. Since then I have won domination victories and space race victories on larger maps, but the best score I get from those is only about 1/4 of the early conquest score I got.

[couerdelion]

But knowing about it is very useful if it buys you the time needed to improve your chances IF those conditions arise. I've done it once before and completely hobbled a neighbour with just a single warrior.

However, I do agree, that the circumstances make this a bit of a gamble without a clear and obvious target.

[couerdelion]

TriMiro,

I don't know the details but I know that early wins give a lot of points.

Personally, I don't find the point score very useful, though.

[jbp26]

Originally posted by TriMiro
On a somewhat related matter, do you guys know how the score at the end of the game is determined? I played on a duel pangea with Ottomans vs French. I was trying to figure out how the early rush works and when the time for attack came I had 5 axeman he had an archer and a couple of warriors. I don't think I learned anything from this game, however, when I won it gave me huge score. Since then I have won domination victories and space race victories on larger maps, but the best score I get from those is only about 1/4 of the early conquest score I got.

roughly speaking, score is calculated as a composite of the number of techs you've researched, your population, the wonders you control, maybe how much land you have (just guessing on that one), and how fast you win. then that score is multiplied by difficulty multiplier.

[TriMiro]

It looks like how fast you win is one of the major factors for the score at the end. Small land, few cities and techs and no wonders combined with a very fast victory gives a very high score. Well the score is not really important, I just like to see a high number after I have spend 7 - 8 hours playing.

As far as learning experience, I do the following. Since I can win easily on Nobel I want to play on Prince, but I still find it hard, so here is what I do. I play on tiny maps and I try to take out one of the AI early on and at the same time not fall too far behind in techs and improvements. When you play against only one AI, it is just a matter of making a horde of axeman archers and spearman faster than the opponent. When you play with two AI, you have to take one, but still plan long term to beat the second. Thus I developed some strategies and I am moving now to small maps and eventually I hope to get to standard maps.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by couerdelion
But knowing about it is very useful if it buys you the time needed to improve your chances IF those conditions arise. I've done it once before and completely hobbled a neighbour with just a single warrior.

However, I do agree, that the circumstances make this a bit of a gamble without a clear and obvious target.

I’ve been playing the Inca for several games now and engaging in a Quechua rush (QR) appears to be pretty reliable to me up to emperor level and on standard continents or smaller Pangaea maps. The number of games I’ve played isn’t enough to be sure but that’s my current hypothesis. The Quechua appears to me to be designed as the best ultra early rush unit in the game and there have been several times where I was able to knock out my closest neighbor’s capital shortly after meeting them. This can get you your 2nd city if it’s well placed but that’s rather more hit and miss. Clearing out your nearest rival usually allows you room to expand and then the size differential will give you the long term advantage. I’m going to do some testing to see if it’s a valid strat for immortal but I can’t see it working as well on larger deity maps although I know some players are working on it. At deity the AI gets its 2nd city up so quickly that taking them on that early is a major investment of turns. That might work if they’re close enough to you to keep the cities but other than that you’re left in a very weak position relative to the other AI’s. At least that’s been my experience so far.

Also, thanks for the links guys. I’ve not had a chance to get to them yet but it’s much appreciated.

[jbp26]

how determinant is the distance of your opponents? what i mean is, do you only consider the rush an option if your closest opponent is x spaces away?

[Drachen]

Originally posted by jbp26
how determinant is the distance of your opponents? what i mean is, do you only consider the rush an option if your closest opponent is x spaces away?

I don’t have a detailed analysis but rather a few trends which seem to have held in my games to date. If I have adequate space to expand and perhaps a natural barrier then I’d probably refrain. If I do attack then the question becomes what to do after a successful result. If I accept a captured city which has room for one decent city between it and my capital then it seems to be advantageous. When it gets significantly further away than that then the increased maintenance costs due to distance and the difficulty of defense make accepting it more problematic and I’ll make the prevailing conditions the determinate of my action. Will it be a significant source of units for further actions and do I even want to continue on the offensive? Will it so hinder my research that it hurts me? I’m still trying to get a better feel for the consequences of the alternatives.

[Kataphraktoi]

You know, you can use a quechua rush strategy for a good start on deity\huge. But it isnt going to give you a guaranteed win. But what would the point be if it was?

Check out some of the civfanatics HOF entries, alot of them are with inca. Its a pretty rigged civ imo, i got some handy wins in (lan)MP with it too