FIN : Most overrated trait

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Rockoon
Financial isnt over-rated at all...

..............

Personally I like a specialist empire more than a cottage one so I prefer Philosophical over Financial

It is if people think it is one of the two strongest traits.

As for PHI > FIN, I'm not entirely sure of this. However, I will say that my most recent game as Liz (FIN/PHI) found me somewhat struggling to do anything dramatic. Stuck with a moderate empire between a powerful Napoleon and a culturally strong Brennus, I’d say it was the PHI trait that did me the most favours and got me into a position where I could comfortably break out of this straightjacket after grabbing a tech advantage an bringing the Redcoats into play (that’s how late the war really was).

Bureaucracy fuelled one of the biggest surges forward for me. But the FIN bonus there only contributed +4 base commerce or +6 with the B/C bonus. At 80% science with +145% science modifiers this generated about +12 beakers per turn in a city whose total science output was comfortably over 100. The Academy in the capital was alone generating something in the region of +30 beakers at this time, the Confucian shrine was generating a similar amount of gold (and diplomatic friends). The PHI bonus got these all more quickly for me.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Rockoon
I think the main benefit of financial is the freedom to NOT use early specialists.

This is not a FREEDOM. It's a self-imposed restriction.

[HoldSteady]

I would like a PHI/IND civ Sadly, has probably been determined as being too much of a synergy..

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by couerdelion


This is not a FREEDOM. It's a self-imposed restriction.

Freedom is the ability to choose. As soon as a choice is made tho, it becomes equal to self-imposed restriction (as long as one option excludes the other). Thats why it is so damned hard for some of us (including me) to deal with freedom.

[Swiss Pauli]

Re: FIN : Most overrated trait

Originally posted by couerdelion So short of a good seafood site, you FIN trait will give you very little in the early game. Even those rarer cases (precious metals/oases) only give a small incremental benefit

Whilst I agree with the general thrust of the idea that FIN is not so powerful in the early game, there are also Ivory, Fur, Marble, Dyes, Spices, Silks, and Wines that can be either improved or cottaged in the early game to the FIN civ's advantage.

As to FIN and IND, I think that the latter's cheap forges bridges the production gap into which a FIN civ can fall, rather than contradicting the cottaging aspect. But I tend not to build many wonders anyway.

[couerdelion]

Re: Re: FIN : Most overrated trait

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli

Whilst I agree with the general thrust of the idea that FIN is not so powerful in the early game, there are also Ivory, Fur, Marble, Dyes, Spices, Silks, and Wines that can be either improved or cottaged in the early game to the FIN civ's advantage.

As to FIN and IND, I think that the latter's cheap forges bridges the production gap into which a FIN civ can fall, rather than contradicting the cottaging aspect. But I tend not to build many wonders anyway.

Ivory - Needs to be beside a river for the FIN bonus to kick in. More often than not, a better tile to settle on than to improve, particularly if there are still other good tiles to improve.
Fur - Usually found in poor locations.
Marble - The FIN bonus on this tile is rather incidental to what you will be using the marble for. Also these are tiles that might be settled on

Dyes/Spices/Silks/Wines - Usually not properly developed until after the early game. Having said that, the riverside wines and silks are often a nice bonus for a FIN civ in the early game if they are settled on. In fact, many of these tiles by the river can be farmed to turn them into a basic tile with the +1 FIN bonus.

But did you not forget Gold? (Silver not usually so good a tile and Gems are normally hidden in jungle)

[Asmodeous]

I think what he's suggesting with those is that the techs to improve those tiles happen remarkably early, so get a FIN bonus right away, because you toss a camp on that ivory and it doesn't need to be near water anymore to get the FIN bonus on it. . .

And the incidental bonus with Marble is what makes FIN powerful, by the by, the fact that the majority of tiles that give you the FIN bonus are incidental bonuses that come about when you're using the tile for something else.

Me.

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by couerdelion
...
Bureaucracy fuelled one of the biggest surges forward for me. But the FIN bonus there only contributed +4 base commerce or +6 with the B/C bonus. At 80% science with +145% science modifiers this generated about +12 beakers per turn in a city whose total science output was comfortably over 100. The Academy in the capital was alone generating something in the region of +30 beakers at this time, the Confucian shrine was generating a similar amount of gold (and diplomatic friends). The PHI bonus got these all more quickly for me.

Please dont take this personal: You are pretty close to making excel-sheets, arent You ? And the game is still fun ? Personally i think (and it´s enough for me to ´think´ - i dont have to know - it´s a game after all) which trait plays best for one, simply depends on the playing styles (among other factors like terrain and even luck (religions)). There is simply no way to say: "This trait is better than that trait" - reminds me a bit of my 6-year-old-nephew who asks me "What is better ?" just about everything: Cars, Dinosaurs, shoes... - obviously preference depends on taste... And that financial made it so well in this poll, doesnt mean its the best trait - it means it is the most liked - it suits most tastes - no more and no less. One might legitly ask though if the most popular product is really the best at all times and well come to a negative conlusion in many cases...

[wodan11]

I don't agree with the comments that "FIN is not so powerful in the early game". Well, I agree, but with the literal interpretation not the stated intent.

For example, that's like saying "ORG is not so powerful in the early game". Well, yeah. You don't realize the full benefit until your empire reaches a certain size, or until you have certain other civics available.

However, it's also true that you HAVE to have the trait in the early game in order to set yourself up for a maximized mid- and late game.

What's the absolute BEST early game trait? If all games ended at 0AD, what would you pick? CRE? AGG?

However, if all games ended at 1500AD, what would you pick? FIN? ORG?

See what I mean?

Wodan

[snoopy369]

The point is that FIN does not give you a substantial benefit in the early game ... and thus doesn't help you build up a nice empire in the early game. Other traits help you build up your early empire more.

Traits that help you in the early game are more useful because a good early game leads to a better late game. If you have 30% more population at AD 1, you will likely outrun a civ with FIN

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
The point is that FIN does not give you a substantial benefit in the early game ... and thus doesn't help you build up a nice empire in the early game. Other traits help you build up your early empire more.

Traits that help you in the early game are more useful because a good early game leads to a better late game. If you have 30% more population at AD 1, you will likely outrun a civ with FIN

FIN gives you +1 commerce which is +33% commerce for some tiles, +25% for others, etc. In effect, FIN gets worse the more improved your cottages are.

FIN is actually worse midgame than it is early game.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

You should not be building a significant number of cottages in the early game (pre-2000bc).

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
The point is that FIN does not give you a substantial benefit in the early game ... and thus doesn't help you build up a nice empire in the early game. Other traits help you build up your early empire more.

Traits that help you in the early game are more useful because a good early game leads to a better late game. If you have 30% more population at AD 1, you will likely outrun a civ with FIN

Well, if your pop is capped at size 4, then I'd say yes. If, that is, somehow your non-FIN is able to be capped at size 5.2 (= 4 + 30%). But, unless I'm misunderstanding, that's not what the situtation actually is.

Wodan

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
You should not be building a significant number of cottages in the early game (pre-2000bc).

A FIN civ should not, a non-FIN should not, or any Civ should not?

And, that beggars the question... why?

Wodan

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by wodan11

Well, if your pop is capped at size 4, then I'd say yes. If, that is, somehow your non-FIN is able to be capped at size 5.2 (= 4 + 30%). But, unless I'm misunderstanding, that's not what the situtation actually is.

Wodan

Population = total number of guys working tiles or otherwise contributing to your nation. Several traits (CHA, CRE, EXP,IMP notably) contribute to early game expansion by cheapening buildings or units, or in the case of CRE also increasing expansion times, or CHA increasing your happy cap. This means that by 2000 BC (or even AD 1) you will have a much larger and/or more productive empire than with FIN, which albeit at ~+15% (the reasonable maximum benefit for the entire empire, 1 in 6) will not have as large of an empire.

Add to that your tendency to build more cottages with FIN (thus not only having less food/hammers, but also typically working grassland 2/0/x instead of hills 1/3 or 0/4, forests 2/1 or 1/2, or other tiles that give a higher hammer+food count than cottaged grassland), and you have a much smaller empire; fewer cities (because you couldn't produce as many settlers), fewer pop per city, and a much smaller army (less production again).

FIN is certainly good for some playstyles - people who prefer not to use specialists, for example, due to their playstyle will find FIN is quite nice because they're forced to use more cottages. A good player can still grow up a city and then convert it to cottages; but it just won't be quite as fast as if it had those extra pop (CHA), extra tiles early on (CRE), or cheaper workers/settlers (EXP,IMP) or granaries (EXP).