The Spiritual trait

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
The worst trait since vanilla. But maybe protective is even worse?

You're kidding, right? SPI is (at least used to be, maybe the changes have weakened it now) one of the strongest traits.

[enderw]

I just played a game as the Native americans (Pro/Phi). With totem poles (+3 exp archery units) I got stonehenge, and then somehow managed to Use Oracle to slingshot Feudalism. I was playing on Monarch. At this point I managed to crush through at least two civs with a longbow army. You never have to stop for defense when you can whip a city defense 2 in a new city or bring a city defense three one from a city with barracks.

But yes I think the Native Americans May be the only civ that can pull off a "longbow rush" and actually leverage pro. into something useful.

But really unless I got a lucky sling to Feudalism, I'm not sure the horde of longbows would ever happen.

[Nor Me]

Without the Mausoleum of Maussollos, I think the 2 GP GA still isn't really worth it until the late game. But yes, spiritual has really lost value then.

Earlier in the game, the Apostolic Palace alone makes up for a lot of the loss. A cheap building with extra production and some culture is worth building everywhere as soon as possible. 10 hammers and 1 pop is much cheaper than the alternatives for non-SPI civs.

I'd normally run a few 5-turn Caste System or Nationalisms with SPI even though I rarely remember or am bothered to starve a GPP city.

The uselessness of PRO is barely worth debating.

[acheron]

I started playing more for flavor recently, so did a game as Charlemagne, just because.

PRO/IMP isn't something I would have chosen gameplaywise, but I kind of liked PRO and had a good game. (Love the rathausen, though.)

I would probably put SPI as worse, simply because I tend to not change civics very often, but that's a personal gameplay style.

[Dominae]

Spiritual is definitely worse with BtS.

You'll generally still pay the Anarchy for your first Civic switch to Slavery. Your second switch, into Monarchy and/or Organized Religion and/or Caste System is easily paid for by your first GA, which only requires one GP to trigger. If you're willing to wait for Civil Service then you'll be able to throw Bureaucracy in there for free as well. It's a long wait before better options for Civics become available, and you should be able to get two more GPs in that time (if not more, for an Academy, etc.).

It's certainly possible to play an entire game without Anarchy now.

Spiritual retains the ability to switch in-and-out of Civics on 6-turn schedule (not sure the exact number), and of course keeps its reduced-cost buildings. Compared to other civs, they have more flexibility with their GP use, but that's not a gain from previous versions.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by jbp26


Can you elaborate? id be very interested to read of an instance where protective was decisive in a game.

PRO is pretty powerful. I thought i posted to this thread earlier but it must've been lost in the 'net...

In an MP game a week or so ago, I was playing as Toku. My neighbor to the west attacked me, and was shocked that my muskets and samurais and such were winning at such high rate. He consistently lost battles he expected to win. I beat him with a smaller army, and on the offensive (his initial strike was quickly countered, and then I moved in...)

This is because of PRO and first strike. It's not just riflemen - and it's not just when you already have an advantage. Sure, a stronger unit with FS capability is nice because it takes less damage. A weaker unit with FS capability is, however, mighty powerful also... it will not only win battles it shouldn't (a normally 30% battle it will on average win with 2-3 FS) but even if it loses - even if it is only 0.1% chance to win - it still will do more damage to the opponent than otherwise.

Play as Toku (or really any other PRO civ, though Tokugawa really shines the most with Samurai) and plan an invasion using only PRO promoted gunpowder units. You will be shocked at how easily you win in an era where offense is HARD. Don't build cannons beyond those necessary to take down the walls. You'll still win surprisingly often... and cheaply, too.

Most important though is the out-of-city combat. This is where PRO really shines. Yes, city defender is all well and good, but where it really shines is out of city combat. Take a stack of city attackers and add a couple of PRO units of the appropriate era, with at least one extra Drill promotion (Drill II or III). When your opponent attacks you with his offensive units, you will find that the FS units often are superior even to stronger or counter units, particularly if he is attacking with cats/cannons/etc. They will take less collateral damage, and allow less damage also as they will more quickly finish off the attacking unit. If nothing else, they will prevent the Cat's FSs from coming into play (in FS vs FS combat, the unit with equal or fewer FS gets none, and the unit with greater FS gets the difference in FSs).

The main reason people don't play PROT is because they don't use the promotion lines PROT gives (particularly first strikes/Drill). That first FS promotion doesn't buy you a lot, but the second (and third and fourth) Drill promotions are NASTY, plain and simple. By the time you get to Drill IV, a unit will generally be essentially invulnerable to weaker units (usually finishing them off before they get a chance to shoot), and will beat units that it otherwise shouldn't on a regular basis. A Drill IV longbowman will outsurvive a Combat IV Swordsman by quite a significant margin; and even a Combat I City Raider III swordsman.

Makes me wonder, who's CHA/PRO... giving my units 8 xp as PRO to start with shouldn't be that hard (one settled GG plus vasselage/theocracy/barracks) ...

[Dominae]

Churchill.

[snoopy369]

Oooh, that is nice indeed. I've never played him, but Drill IV redcoats ... :drool:

[Kuciwalker]

Or use unrestricted leaders to get Churchill of the NA's - add in Vassalage or Theocracy and you can be pumping out Drill IV Archers and Longbows.

[Jaybe]

I have never played a spiritual civ since October 2005.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Or use unrestricted leaders to get Churchill of the NA's - add in Vassalage or Theocracy and you can be pumping out Drill IV Archers and Longbows.

That would be cheating...

[Saygame]

Back to the spirituality trait for a minute. Despite the GA advantage (which Dom so well pointed out so brilliantly in his GA strat post), I still find the spirtuality trait my favorite. It all depends on how its used. If you park your civics for long periods of time then sure, spirtuality is a wasted trait. But moving between Slavery, Serfdom and Caste System frequently, gives you a world of possibilities ever after hitting Feudalism and COL. And movin back and forth between Nationhood, Police State and Theocracy ( back to Org Religion, Representation and Bureacracy) for wars and back out as needed keep you flexible enough to wage defensive and offensive wars for short duration (long enough to earn a capitualion) without throwing away your tech competitiveness til your next GA. In addition you can change four or five civics on the fly at once with crippling no multi turn penalty and no waiting til your next GA.

Granted BTS GAs can now do give you more flexibility to do that more frequently but with spirtuality the whole game of civics shifts to your advantage in the moment as needed. Forget to build that Taoist monastery? Bam! Move back to Org Rel for five turns, no charge, tyvm. See ya back at Free Religion in five turns. Make a mistake movin out of Bureacracy for Free Speech too early? Bam.....undo the devestation of a normally crippling error.

Yup, I love spirtuality and still feel its my best trait.

Saygame

Btw, thanks Snoopy for that piece on FS. I never woulda guessed all the angles. Its like wakin up one day and discoverin Medic 3 and Santa Claus really do exist.

[Palpster]

It's weaker, since the no-anarchy option can be used by non-spiritual leaders as well, but it's still very useful....switch to vassalage and theocracy, do military pump, switch back to economically superior traits. You can do this any time without having to wait for Golden Ages (which get more costly the more you trigger them).....I agree with what's been said before though, it's a waste if you don't use it and stick to your fav civics....then again, nothing's changed there, it was useless before when (not) used in this way.

[couerdelion]

Madness. You’ve all been infected with a madness. But I have here a cure.

Spiritual is very powerful and was due for a downgrade. It’s power is NOT in the saving of a few turns of anarchy but in the ability to change civics for FREE.
Financial is not as strong as most people think – a middling strength trait and certainly behind CHA, SPI and CRE.
Protective is not a strong trait – probably the weakest of the lot.

[Blake]

Okay. You're merrily teching along, then get declared on by your neighbor who you thought you could trust. Your army is inadequate and your "friend" is the only one sharing your religion. You do the rounds looking for someone to bribe onto your "friend" but they all point and laugh because you're the wrong religion.

Unless by sheer co-incidence you happen to be in the middle of a GA, spiritual will help save your bacon. Switch into slavery, switch religions to make bribes available, and so on.

The GA thing is great for planned civic switches, but it falls far short of the strength of Spiritual : Which is flexibility and being able to respond to surprises.