The Spiritual trait

[Arrian]

It seems to me that SPI has been somewhat nerfed by the changes in BtS. Allowing no-anarchy civics changes in golden ages has removed one of the key advantages of the trait. Coupled with greater ease of triggering GAs, I have found that I spend very little time in anarchy anyway, as I simply time my civics changes for my GAs, of which I will have at least 3. In the late game, of course, there is the Cristo Redentor.

I hate wasting turns in anarchy (given that IMO then entire game is about turn-advantage). That made SPI a good civic for me in vanilla CIV and Warlords, even though I didn't really maximize its potential. Now, though... I'll pass.

-Arrian

[Kataphraktoi]

The worst trait since vanilla. But maybe protective is even worse?

I always found the anarchy bonus unconvincing as it seems any other economic bonus trait can generate as much or more turn advantage

[Indalecio]

Why do people bag on Protective? It gives free promotions to both Archer and Gunpowder units, so its useful for most of the game.

[LzPrst]

protective is quite decent. it would be even more decent if the game didnt stress expansion by conquest so much. but even so, the first strike is valuable for offensive operations.


spiritual... is quite weak now. I tend to avoid financial cause it's too strong and spiritual because both add little in way of flavor...

[jbp26]

Originally posted by Indalecio
Why do people bag on Protective? It gives free promotions to both Archer and Gunpowder units, so its useful for most of the game.

in the early game, youre most likely not using your archers as your offensive force, so the promotions are not important. the only exception would be if youve got an enemy really barelling down on you, but even then the bonus is not that great. i've found that if im not on the offensive in that early part of the game, im not going to win. protective is the most useless trait to me.

[Arrian]

I've always thought PRO was a crap trait. I've never been a huge fan of AGG either, but I'd take it over PRO in a heartbeat.

Basically, that's the equation for me... why would I be PRO instead of AGG? I think PRO is the weakest trait.

Watch, now somebody I know is better at the game than me will deliver a treatise on how strong PRO is.

-Arrian

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Re: The Spiritual trait

Originally posted by Arrian
I have found that I spend very little time in anarchy anyway, as I simply time my civics changes for my GAs, of which I will have at least 3.

Spiritual isn't going to do you very much good if you just park in the "best" civics. Three changes before the modern era just doesn't cut it. (In another place, I've compared this to an aggressive leader who builds no melee units.)

That said, I agree Spi did get nerfed in BTS. Although the SP bookends really nicely with the Pyramids for a spiritual civ.

[Arrian]

I know. I never really maximized SPI, but I recognized that it could be pretty strong if used properly.

I'd say I typically change civics three times before any GAs, then 2-4 times via GA*. If I was SPI, I might change a little more, but basically I'm not into MMing my civics enough to really make SPI sing. I'm similiar with PHI. That's generally agreed to be a very powerful trait, but I'm terrible at using it. That doesn't mean I will argue it's weak.

-Arrian

* I've made multiple changes w/in a GA, and I've also been triggering lots of GAs... 3 by GP and 1 by the Taj = 4. I had 5 in my last game, which is more than I ever had in vanilla. But since I had the Mausoleum and a large empire...

[Asmodeous]

Originally posted by Arrian
I've always thought PRO was a crap trait. I've never been a huge fan of AGG either, but I'd take it over PRO in a heartbeat.

Basically, that's the equation for me... why would I be PRO instead of AGG? I think PRO is the weakest trait.

Watch, now somebody I know is better at the game than me will deliver a treatise on how strong PRO is.

-Arrian

Agg+Pro (Tokugawa) makes for a mighty combination though.

Pro CAN be incredibly powerful, but it's not powerful on its own. It's entirely dependant upon what it's paired with.

Me.

[Arrian]

Really? I dunno. I'd rather be AGG/FIN, outresearch the AGG/PRO, and crush them with superior units.

-Arrian

[darrelljs]

[SIZE=1] I always found the anarchy bonus unconvincing as it seems any other economic bonus trait can generate as much or more turn advantage

Well, not suffering anarchy means you can make civics switches you would never dream of as a non-Spiritual civ. Play Monty, pop into Slavery, whip, five turns later whip again, then swap back to Emancipation or whatever. You can't do things like that with a non-Spiritual leader (unless you get Cristo, which is not available until Radio). Its still a top tier trait IMO, even if there are now ways for non-Spiritual leaders to avoid anarchy.

Darrell

[wodan11]

Golden Ages has a cost, both in resource (GP) and in opportunity / timing (you have to spend the resource when you want to change civics, otherwise you are spending time in a civic which is not your best choice at the moment, which is exactly what we're talking about in the first place). Spiritual is still valuable for these two reasons: preserving the resource for other uses (of which there are many) an preventing the opportunity cost in allowing you complete flexibility.

In addition, Spiritual gives cheap Temples. Several very good and powerful strategies rely upon temple spamming. This provides an alternative to Theatres and/or Creative for expanding your cities to the fat X. There's also synchronicity with Spiral and Sankore. Furthermore, temples provide happiness straight up, which is always good.

Wodan

[jbp26]

Originally posted by Asmodeous


Agg+Pro (Tokugawa) makes for a mighty combination though.

Pro CAN be incredibly powerful, but it's not powerful on its own. It's entirely dependant upon what it's paired with.

Can you elaborate? id be very interested to read of an instance where protective was decisive in a game.

[wodan11]

I like to use Pro in combination with a beeline to Rifling. Rifles are an order of magnitude jump in power over all the other available units. And that's exactly where First Strike is decisive. When you have a stronger unit.

Wodan

[Asmodeous]

Well, the main thing is you need to leave less armies in your defense while you're off conquering the world with someone like Tokugawa so you can all but remain in a constant state of war if you can combat the war weariness.

It's not optimal, by far, as stated Agg/Fin is a better combination, but we were mostly talking about whether or not PRO was any good, and I was suggesting the PRO is only good if it is paired with something that takes a good advantage from the PRO's bonuses, such as Aggressive.

I think Wodan put it better though.

Me.

Edit: More clearly. Riflemen+AGG+PRO==Owie.