Resident of Apostolic Palace

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
In my current game, I'm the resident. Why can't I redecorate the palace? It's dab and grey...


I'm thinking... pastels!

I wish they didn't have text boxes to represent the AP.

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
There is also an interesting decision process behind whether to build the AP or not.

I've built it twice. Neither time was I installed as a leader. Definitely a frustrating "loss" of a lot of hammers. This frustration is magnified by its potential (as discussed) in some games to radically hamper efforts to expand by aggression. Even then, I can easily imagine it is far better to have the AP within your religious block than outside. In the limited experience I have with it so far, I am constantly seeing “stop trade” resolutions with nations that fall outside the religious block (I have yet to see one pass). It is also fairly easy to imagine a religious war brought against unpopular nations outside the block than inside, where “brothers in the faith” modifiers keep those inside more civil.

So even though I may not be installed as leader, I feel I almost have to try to build it first, if nothing more than to keep it out of hostile infidel hands.

Were you the founder of your state religion, or did you convert to someone else's?

Since votes are dependent on pop of cities with the AP religion, maybe it's better to have a different state religion than other civs, at least as far as getting elected leader. If you're first to Theology, you found Christianity. Spread it to all your cities, to some cities of other civs, make it your state religion, build the AP, and you'll have the most votes.

[One_more_turn]

What's the AP's effect on Free Religion civics?

What's the effect of razing the city with AP?

[Adagio]

So far the AP hasn't really been of much use in my games. In the first game 80% of the civs was of religion X, and there was always a war going on between them. The only thing the AP was used for was to end a war
In the second game only one civ was of the specified religion (and not many other civs had that religion in any of the cities). The AP was never really used throughout most of the game. During the time I was a voting member only one vote succeeded, which was a long time after the UN was built ( ) and was to try to stop all trading with the civ I was about to attack (my yes vote made the difference)



IMHO the AP should be more like this:
When the leader can propose an election he/she gets a popup saying so, instead of a popup showing which elections he/she can start. Then when he/she feels like it he goes to the propose vote screen
I could imagine that sometimes the timing would be very bad. What if the leader wants to start a war against civ x, but at the time he gets to pick the election he's not ready for a war, but he doesn't want to wait 20-40 turns extra (or how long it is between the votes) to start it

[One_more_turn]

Ok, I razed the city with AP. Nothing happened. For people bent on domination, either build or raze the AP.

[Verrucosus]

I am playing a game with the specific aim of seeking a religious victory. I drew the Germans (Mining, Hunting), so I missed all of the early religions and had to settle for Confucianism. Afterwards I immediately went for Theology and started building the Apostolic Palace in Berlin while spreading Confucianism throughout my six-city empire. I did not start to spread Confucianism in other empires until I had shipped three missionaries to the most far-away lands. Once they were in place, they brought Confuciansim to these remote civs in a single turn. Luckily, none of them had switched to Theocracy and all of the missionary actions succeeded. I quickly built three more missionaries to do the same to my three immediate neighbours, so the Palace Membership went from 1 to 7 within a course of five turns. As a result, the other six members have only very few votes yet and I should be able to win once the proposal comes up.

Questions:
1) Is there anything I can do to make the proposal come up?
2) Is there anything I can do to gain more votes and make it harder for them to gain more votes in the meantime? (Apart from the second academy which is under construction, I think I have all the Confucian buildings except for the shrine.)
3) Is there a danger of a sudden attack because my opponents notice what I am up to? My military is extremely weak. In this context, is it a good idea to drop Confucianism as a state religion to lose the diplomatic "heathen" penalty or would that reduce my chances of winning? As builder of the Palace, I should remain a full member even without officially adhering to the Palace's religion, right?
4) Up to this point, everything went like clockwork, so this technique appears to be reproducable. (Then again, this is only "Noble" level and I had a pretty good start). If I were one of those AI leaders, I would be pretty shocked to lose the game so suddenly. Apart from adopting Theocracy or going to war (both of which I may not want to do for various reasons) , how could I protect myself from an opponent using this strategy?

I have attached a save-file in case I have missed any important information.

[Verrucosus]

Ahem, I just continued the game. The proposal came up the very next turn and I won the election narrowly. This doesn't make the questions posted irrelevant, but it takes a bit away from the drama.

[ben04]

The AP is great to keep your neighbors busy. Found a religion, spread it to all your cities and to only one in every of your neighboring civs. Now build the AP. You can get every resolution through as you have the absolute majority of votes and I haven't yet seen AI veto. So make them declare war on some civ far away and watch them send all of the offensive SODs there. Now you're quiet and can either build neglecting your defenses a bit or back stab one of your neighbors while his army is aboard. Don't make the AP declare war on a civ you want to conquer. It might capitulate and make conquest harder that way.

As to ridicules AI demands : Just do the same. Ask every civ that you are good with for some techs or gold. They will give you sometimes what you want and you have no risk of diplomatic consequences. If in Rome do as the Romans do.

[Lord Avalon]

I tried building the AP while under a neighbor's religion then switching to one I founded. But the votes were still according to the pop of the religion when it was built.

So if you want to maintain leadership, it's better to build the AP under a new religion you've founded which hasn't spread much to other civs, or depopulate your neighbors.

[Tony]

Here an interesting comparison. The Apostolic Palace costs 400 hammers to build. For that cost you can instead build 10 missionaries (non-industrious, no marble) to convert your 10 most productive cities to the apostolic religion after the AI has built it for you.

There are lots of other factors to consider eg: not every missionary will succeed if you already have a religion in that city. Does missionary production get effected by "military unit" prod bonuses?

There would be pros and cons either way, but its worth mentioning you don't need to give up the chance to be Pope just because someone beat you to the AP.

Tony

[Lord Avalon]

If the AP religion is an old one, then even if you spread it to all your cities, two (or more) civs that have it could outvote you.

[trev]

I have had several games of mine destroyed by the AI having the Apostolic Palace and forcing through resolutions stopping wars, handing back cities etc.
So I decided to build it, found initially I was outvoted as resident, by my neighbour who had more cities with religion than me, easily fixed, a few cities taken put me in as resident and vote controller.
Next I noticed a shortage of resolution, assuming maybe it was because the religion had not spread to enough of the worlds cities, I got active with missionaries, the resolutions started appearing on a regular basis.
Through wars I kept conquering some of the cities with the religion, so I kept the dominant vote, while spreading the religion further. The wars led to a vassal and faithful supporter in the votes. Eventually when the religion had spread to sufficient of the worlds cities I was given the option of religious ruler of the world which I won, gaining a religious victory.
So an Apostolic Palace must be supported by a large number of the worlds cities with that religion and for the human player to have a controlling vote, through a large empire and vassals.
Often if it is a later religion you are spreading the AI's generally will not switch to it as a state religion, so they cannot become the resident, in my game only my neighbour who I quickly became larger than and eventually wiped out adopted it as state religion meaning I was generally unopposed in votes for residence of AP, and unapposed in final vote for victory.