Resident of Apostolic Palace

[Dactyl]

Well, it's around 1600 in my game, which I'm abandoning. I'm playing Prince and I'm so far ahead that it's boring. I'm going to try the same level but with aggressive AI. Anyway, I never received the opportunity to vote on anything. Four or five times we voted for resident and I won easily each time, but that was as far as it went.

[nbarclay]

I hope the Apostolic Palace and the serious imbalance of the AI demand mechanism don't work together to make a huge mess for players. The demand mechanism places players at a serious disadvantage in our relations with other civs because AIs make ridiculous demands of us and get upset if we don't cave in. Worse, with some of the demands (stopping trading and declaring war), giving in to a demand in order to avoid a penalty from one civ creates a penalty with another, or even multiple others ("You declared war on our friend). In contrast, I can't remember ever looking at relations between AIs, even late in the game, and seeing a "you refused to..." penalty in their relationships with each other. The result is that humans are routinely forced into situations where we have to either do something we consider a bad idea or accept a penalty in our foreign relations that AIs don't get stuck with.

In the original Civ 4 and Warlords, the United Nations is weak enough and comes late enough in the game that the AIs' advantage from not facing penalties for rejecting demands isn't that big a deal, at least unless players are pursuing a diplomatic victory or an AI manages to win one. But I'm worried that the Apostolic Palace is powerful enough to create a much bigger mess. Any thoughts from folks who have actual experience with it? (My BtS game is currently in the mail from Amazon, so I'm stuck thinking about the game instead of playing it. )

[Wiglaf]

The AP is pretty toothless. The only civs who need to worry about it are the non-resident ones who have deeply pissed off the civs in the AP, either through war or their religion. If you refuse a few demands you don't really have anything to worry about.

[TheArsenal]

I too am interested in hearing other people's experiences because I found it far from toothless although it apparent to me it changes from game to game. I am also curious what strategy is used to defy (as opposed to simply voting "no") on a "few" demands since simply defying two resolutions completely broke my empire from the unhappiness strain.

To be clear, I am not complaining about the Wonder. It's an interesting change of pace. But in my mind it has the potential to be way more powerful than I think people realize at this early stage in the release.

[Wiglaf]

A defy is a veto, so it could be used to prevent, say, everyone from going State propertyor mercantilism. This is useful if you make all your money through corporate branches in other civs. (I'm pretty sure universal state prop and mercantilism are possible resolutions). More likely than not, though, you'd defy to avoid having to switch to a civic other than free speech, which would kill a run at a culture victory.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
The AP is pretty toothless. The only civs who need to worry about it are the non-resident ones who have deeply pissed off the civs in the AP, either through war or their religion. If you refuse a few demands you don't really have anything to worry about.

Is this based on actual experience defying "a few demands" or is it purely theoretical? If it is based on actual experience, how close together were your decisions to defy the demands?

[Wiglaf]

Just to be clear: by demands in that context, I meant normal AI leader demands in diplomacy, like this one you mentioned:

The demand mechanism places players at a serious disadvantage in our relations with other civs because AIs make ridiculous demands of us and get upset if we don't cave in.Worse, with some of the demands (stopping trading and declaring war),

Ignoring these upsets civs a bit, but it isn't enough to influence what the AP does. AP resolutions will only really affect you if you've made a major enemy out of the AP resident and voting members.

Defying AP resolutions is different and causes a lot of unhappiness in your civ, so it should only be done for an extremely good reason. Voting "no" on a resolution leads to no ill effects at all. This is different from a "defy", which vetos the resolution so it does not pass.

[nbarclay]

TheArsenal, did you look into any cities to see exactly what was happening happiness-wise? I'd be interested to find out how many points of "The World Considers You a Villain" unhappiness you were getting. I'm also curious as to how long the penalty lasts, if anyone knows.

[TheArsenal]

I'm not in front of my gaming system. But I did save the game several times during the process, so I will be able to go back and give exact numbers when I get home. That said, I believe the first defying of the resolutions gave me +6 or so unhappiness in a fair number of cities (perhaps all). I do not recall if the second resolution tacked on another +6 or was a bit more or less, but as I noted up thread, it was enough to slow production of the Sistine Chapel from being completed in 3 turns to being completed in 53. Tacking all that unhappiness onto a war weary nation made for one broken economy.

Also: I will be able to tell you the partial duration of the unhappiness, but not complete, because after my nation's near collapse from anger, I started a new game keeping these lessons in mind.

[mkorin]

The AP is far from toothless if used correctly. I have used it to win a game, to stop overpowering enemies from destroying me, having a cabal attack an enemy and of course stopping trade to people I don't like. I think it will become a must have.

Mike

[TheArsenal]

Okay, I went back to my game and replayed the turns. The first time I defied a resolution the cost was +5 unhappiness. The second time added another +5 unhappiness (for a total of +10 to already crowded war weary cites that couldn't take the strain).

A point of correction to my earlier post: It was the Notre Dame, not the Sistine Chapel, I was building with 6 turns (not 3) left that ended up at 53 turns once the production slowed.

[snoopy369]

So probably from 9 hammers/turn to 1, or 18 hammers/turn to 2... that's certainly possible with drastic unhappiness, forced to stop working several 0/4 tiles in exchange for 4/0 floodplains or such...

[ColdPhoenix]

I'm having a great time with BtS and the AP is one of my favourite parts. Wars are a lot more fun against the improved AI and a lot of wars mean the AP plays a larger role. I've started and stopped wars among many civs, creating large blocs of opposing civs. Returning cities to your friends at the expense of your enemies before going back to war is fun.

The bonus hammers for the religious buildings can really help your civ. You'll lose these as well as getting the unhappiness bonus for defying resolutions, so I try and gain as much influence in the voting as possible but unless it's really bad for my civ will almost always stick to the resolutions. I've even joined wars I don't want to so that I don't get the penalties. There's usually some resolution to do, even getting the gang to stop trading with some powerful heathen civ. It might reduce my commerce but it's hitting him harder!

[Tattila the Hun]

In my current game, I'm the resident. Why can't I redecorate the palace? It's dab and grey...


I'm thinking... pastels!

[TheArsenal]

There is also an interesting decision process behind whether to build the AP or not.

I've built it twice. Neither time was I installed as a leader. Definitely a frustrating "loss" of a lot of hammers. This frustration is magnified by its potential (as discussed) in some games to radically hamper efforts to expand by aggression. Even then, I can easily imagine it is far better to have the AP within your religious block than outside. In the limited experience I have with it so far, I am constantly seeing “stop trade” resolutions with nations that fall outside the religious block (I have yet to see one pass). It is also fairly easy to imagine a religious war brought against unpopular nations outside the block than inside, where “brothers in the faith” modifiers keep those inside more civil.

So even though I may not be installed as leader, I feel I almost have to try to build it first, if nothing more than to keep it out of hostile infidel hands.