Who's the Best New Leader in BTS?

[korn469]

Originally posted by Will9


Since CHA is only -25% for promotions wouldn't it be a CHA can do with 1 GG what a another leader needs 4 for. Also, CHA doesn't affect millitary acadimies.

Wouldn't it really be a CHA leader can do with 4 GG what it would take another leader 5 GG.

[One_more_turn]

This is an excellent thread. I'm going to try Brennus next on Standard Pangea.

[ben04]

I'm surprised that Darius doesn't have many fans. He has double economy rockets and a kick ass UU and a not that useful UB.

If you draw an isolate start then the financial trait saves the day. Organized is still nice but wont count that much ass you probably wont have the room needed to expand to make it useful.

When you have some neighbors then do an Immortal rush and you will have a big empire from the start of the game on. With the traits you can turn that whole empire into a research lab and thus out tech (and out produce) everybody. The only problem is when you don't have any horses, then you will have to make a regular start as everybody else.


I'm surprised that William of Orange is weighted that much. There are obviously map types where he is strong like Terra maps. He can claim the whole new world if he wants as he has sea superiority but I don't know how much colony maintain costs will give him problems and there is the problem that the new world needs a lot of time to get productive as it's way behind the old one when it comes to infrastructure and then there is the obvious question if there is a new world?

If not what does he get from his UU and UB? From the UU a protection against naval invasions. Not useless but there are better UUs like those you can use in the offensive. From the UB he gets nearly nothing in my eyes. Of course the dike is powerful but so is the normal levee version of it. The hammer you get for the river tile is granted by the base type not the dike so you may only consider the water tile hammer. It comes too late to be useful. At that point of the game towns should be your main source of commerce and mines your source of hammers. If you're still working water tiles then either you haven't build enough workers, got really bad terrain or need to whip.

The traits are good though but still there are better leaders with good traits and good UU and or UB.

Cathy without full strength Cossacks isn't the real Cathy.

Justinian sounds nice but haven't played as him yet.

[Blaupanzer]

William is awesome from the start with water tiles and the Fin trait. You can work a lot of mines by farming river grass instead of towns. The water tiles can enable the city to still be a financial powerhouse. Creative trait is always dangerous to opponents early. If I am not playing a leader with CRE, then I need to kill any CRE immediate neighbors as soon as possible. This makes William dangerous early; that dike makes him dangerous late, as he suddenly becomes a production powerhouse just as the final push to win at space or domination is about to start.

[ben04]

Doesn't that apply to all financial leaders? I mean for each of them early water tiles are juice. Creative is also nice but those traits don't have a that great synergy they are just strong by themselves. Cheap libraries is the best it gets.

I don't want to say that he's weak but he certainly isn't the best as many people here seem to think.

The only strength I see that is unique to him is that he is capable of working 1 tile islands in the late game. If he can spread Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi or Cereal Mills there those cities will get running pretty fast. The lighthouse and dike make each tile give 2 food, 1 hammer and 3 commerce. That's nothing compared to late grassland towns with 2 food, 1 hammer and 7(?) commerce but grassland towns are pretty much all claimed at that time. 1 tile islands are not and he gets them on top of the grassland towns. The hammers also allow him to get basic infrastructure running. The dike and lighthouse are obviously needed but he'll also need the courthouse. The city must be productive, meaning cost less than it produces and therefore a courthouse is vital.

1 tile islands are special as they'll mostly produce ships and with a 3 to 4 defenders and a hospital or medic promotion those defenders should be near to immortal.

[Arrian]

I'm a big fan of Darius. Org/Fin is a strong combo, the UB is decent, and the UU, IMO, is excellent (provided, of course, you hook up horses early).

-Arrian

[One_more_turn]

Darius is great. I voted for him.

[Arrian]

I'm not voting yet, but my early preference is certianly Darius.

The thing is those Immortals of his aren't quite the terror they were before Blake worked on the AI. In my (very limited) experience in BtS, the AI does a very good job of getting a spear or two built ASAP. I haven't yet had a Darius start w/horses in the capital radius. When I do, *boom*.

-Arrian

[ben04]

You can have Immortals out before they have their bronze hooked up. With the right timing and enough bronze pillagers you can still easy conquer a civ. You have a highly mobile unit that doesn't have to fight a single battle until the force is ready.

Declare war on multiple civs as soon as you have a few Immortals to spare and send them in. Do this before you have enough for serious city taking. Position them near the bronzes and kill of workers and settlers if possible. Don't try to take cities that have a better protection than a warrior or an archer without a city bump. As soon as the infrastructure is destroyed ride into defensive terrain, ideally not to close to cities to avoid that the AI panics.

This way the AI can not develop as it can't take out your Immortals and therefore will sooner or later fall when you have enough cavalry or can bring in swordmen.

The Immortals actually allow for a pretty tactic heavy war and therefore I like them.



You can also make boom with any organized leader and an advanced start. Just buy lots of settlers and leave out all military units. Send them out early before even the animals come into the game. You can easily settle 2 to 3 times the area an AI will settle.

[Alexander I]

Hmm. Interesting choices. William of Orange has a huge lead, followed by Boudica as a distant second and with Justinian and Darius tied in third.

I wonder if this precedent will continue.

[darrelljs]

I'm flabbergasted by the results of this poll, both at how well William did and how poorly Pericles did.

Darrell

[Arrian]

Originally posted by ben04
You can have Immortals out before they have their bronze hooked up. With the right timing and enough bronze pillagers you can still easy conquer a civ. You have a highly mobile unit that doesn't have to fight a single battle until the force is ready.

Declare war on multiple civs as soon as you have a few Immortals to spare and send them in. Do this before you have enough for serious city taking. Position them near the bronzes and kill of workers and settlers if possible. Don't try to take cities that have a better protection than a warrior or an archer without a city bump. As soon as the infrastructure is destroyed ride into defensive terrain, ideally not to close to cities to avoid that the AI panics.

This way the AI can not develop as it can't take out your Immortals and therefore will sooner or later fall when you have enough cavalry or can bring in swordmen.

I played Darius again last night. My 2nd city was settled to nab horses. I built up a stack of ~7 immortals and attack my (copper-less) neighbor. It was bloody as hell, though, because said neighbor was Japan (protective). Ugh. I ended up needing catapults to take Kyoto, and I lost 4 or 5 cats doing that. Ouch. Still, I'm doing pretty well in that game.

The second thing you bring up is important for me to remember. I like going for the super-early knockout blow, but sometimes it's best to take out a secondary city, make sure they don't have metals and then hang back, whacking settler teams, until I have overwhelming numbers or catapults. Last night I forted my army around Kyoto, trying to choke off their ability to build archers, but they still ended up with a ton of them and it cost me.

-Arrian

[Krill]

The second thing you bring up is important for me to remember. I like going for the super-early knockout blow, but sometimes it's best to take out a secondary city, make sure they don't have metals and then hang back, whacking settler teams, until I have overwhelming numbers or catapults. Last night I forted my army around Kyoto, trying to choke off their ability to build archers, but they still ended up with a ton of them and it cost me.

That's the choke or rush question. You either stop a civ from developing by sitting a few units in it's land and keep units in reserve to whack any settler teams that the civ runs out, build an empire and wait for cats; or you keep on building units and try to take out the civ asap.

The time to do the former (choke) is when it is a 1v1 on your continent or you have really good land because you want to expand and make use of the good land, or because all of the land will be settled before another AI gets it. You rush when you can get another good city site (the AIs' capital) for a little investment (ie quecha rush) or when other AIS are encroaching your land and you need to get more land asap to develop into.

Sometimes I'll choke one civ and rush another, then when I have finished rushing one civ I'll get my units together and I might rush the second one.

[Kataphraktoi]

I think William of Orange is obvious. Not as good as Catherine used to be but still

My fav; Darius of the Sumerians. 45 hammer courthouses earlier than ussual