Beyond the Sword Review by Solver

[SpencerH]

Good lord that was long (and I'm very tired from insomnia). Thanks to Solver for his efforts though. I'm looking forward to BtS and the continuation of the best strategy game series (especially so since TW now sucks $$$$). I'm not fond of the CIV4 combat system and I'm looking forward to being able to avoid it alogether while waiting for a better system in Civ5 ie "the best of civ with optional real time combat).

Thank y'all it's time to try to sdlleep.

[Blake]

BtS AI Pros: The AI is improved in every area of the game. AI bonuses are decreased.

BtS AI Cons: It's not perfect.

[Nugog]

Again an excellent review Solver.

Thank You!

[vondrack]

As a fellow tester, I have to say... Solver, this is a fantastic review!

After spending the better part of the last three years discussing CIV and its XPs ad nauseam, I actually feel like playing BtS after reading your review. I honestly didn't think it could happen any time soon...

Amazing, how much information you crammed into those few pages without making it messy.

EXCELLENT work!

[Robert]

into those few pages

[Martinus]

Sweet, thanks Solver.

I have two questions, if you do not mind answering:

1. Does the AI have an algorithm for taking the fact that you have the Statue of Zeus into account before making a decision to attack (i.e. does it count as a deterrent before the war begins)?

2. Have you tried a strategy of trying to get forest to grow back around your cities in late game by building a forest preserve in a nearby forest and pillaging adjacent tiles near your cities? If so, how viable/productive is that? (i.e. how likely is the forest to grow back with FP)?

[Solver]

Originally posted by vondrack
After spending the better part of the last three years discussing CIV and its XPs ad nauseam, I actually feel like playing BtS after reading your review. I honestly didn't think it could happen any time soon...

Same here... but I started a new game last evening. Then again, it's fair enough, I haven't played any for almost a month .

[Solver]

Originally posted by Martinus
Sweet, thanks Solver.

I have two questions, if you do not mind answering:

1. Does the AI have an algorithm for taking the fact that you have the Statue of Zeus into account before making a decision to attack (i.e. does it count as a deterrent before the war begins)?

That would be a question for Blake.

2. Have you tried a strategy of trying to get forest to grow back around your cities in late game by building a forest preserve in a nearby forest and pillaging adjacent tiles near your cities? If so, how viable/productive is that? (i.e. how likely is the forest to grow back with FP)?

I haven't tried that, mainly because my Grassland and Plains tiles are probably mostly Towns by that time, and I prefer those to forests. I use Preserves around one city, usually, where I build the National Park, that's worth it.

[Solver]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
From what I've read about Corporations - backed up by what you say about their trade-offs - I don't know if culling their effects in SP will be all that big a deal (when I play that far along ). So you miss out on a few extra food or shields in each city you have a Corporation branch in - all those cities need is a couple of Windmills or Workshops and the food is made up with the inherent bonus of SP, and now with +10% production in every city, you can expect at least an extra shield in every city without having to deal with the negatives of Corporation upkeep (there's another thing SP does for you - REDUCES your maintenance), or the cost involved in starting it.

Maybe they've been undersold by everyone who's discussed them so far, but the cost-benefit of Corporations underwhelms me.

Of all the things I think about BtS, this is the one area where I really wish I was wrong. The problem is the most visible, IMO, with food corporations. Then if you switch to SP, you just can't compensate for the food loss from corps, and you will starve.

Yes, SP is still great at reducing maintenance. And has some other bonuses. But the problem is, corporations are quite an investment. Take the hammer-giving corps. So you've founded one and spread it, now your cities enjoy higher production. If you switch to SP, your hammer outputs will probably drop, although not catastrophically. However, the hundreds or even thousands of gold you've spent on spreading your corporation are now absolutely wasted. So my problem is switching to SP after you've founded a corporation.

[Robert]

Solver: maybe that's just one of the NOGO areas. SP with corporations.
But it's a save haven if the corporation maintenance is killing you.

SP is more for the civs without corporations.

[Solver]

And that's the problem. If so, it eliminates choice in the economy civics column. The choice of corporations against no corporations is a good one, but the civic choice is eliminated. It's Free Market if you go corps and State Property if you don't go corps.

[sneaky]

Originally posted by Solver


Of all the things I think about BtS, this is the one area where I really wish I was wrong. The problem is the most visible, IMO, with food corporations. Then if you switch to SP, you just can't compensate for the food loss from corps, and you will starve.

Yes, SP is still great at reducing maintenance. And has some other bonuses. But the problem is, corporations are quite an investment. Take the hammer-giving corps. So you've founded one and spread it, now your cities enjoy higher production. If you switch to SP, your hammer outputs will probably drop, although not catastrophically. However, the hundreds or even thousands of gold you've spent on spreading your corporation are now absolutely wasted. So my problem is switching to SP after you've founded a corporation.

But, if you get swamped by corporations founded by your neighbors, you haven't put any money in their spread. When the maintenance costs for those cities start to grow to impossible levels and your opponent is swimming in cost thanks to his HQ, doesn't State Property not only become an needed but also smart civic?

Great review by the way.

[Solver]

In that situation, Mercantilism is a smart civic. It blocks foreign corporations, and that's really good design.

[sneaky]

Originally posted by Solver
In that situation, Mercantilism is a smart civic. It blocks foreign corporations, and that's really good design.

Oh yes, you are right. But, that means in practice the choice will be between Free Trade, Mercantilism and State Property. Which is much better than it was before, when State Property was so overpowered.

[ghen]

Solver:

As an original owner of Civilization IV, I never bothered to purchase Warlords simply because I felt it didn't add enough to keep me interested in the game. At the time, my games went the same way every time. Crush my neighbor early and dominate the game from there. It got boring for me, and AI cheats at the higher levels just didn't seem like a goal to beat

With the addition of BtS and your exorbitantly detailed review I'm now coming back to CivIV for a while. I'm excited about the improvements to AI, the non-war methodology, and some of the mods (expecially Afterworld!) deserve to be played!

Thanks. For everything,

Ghen