early tech path strategies

[Dominae]

Re: Re: Re: early tech path strategies

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Now this puzzles me a bit - unless I have popped a settler somehow or there are a lot of special resources around my capital, I find I need Pottery and hence cottages to have something constructive for my worker to do before city #2. Once I've maybe irrigated a grass or two (or a fp), put in a mine and attached any special resources, there's often not much for my worker to do except build a cottage or two, unless I have a really great city site.

How long do you wait before building your first Settler? Do you go for a Wonder first? What are the Happy/Health caps on the difficulty leve you play at?

I usually go for a Settler either when it hits the Happiness cap if my capital is really Food-rich, or earlier. So my second city is up and running pretty quick and my Worker suddenly has a lot more to do. Sometimes I'll build an early Wonder, in which case my Worker is certainly busy chopping Forest (and certainly not prioritizing Cottages).

The earlier the better for cottages, of course, and if I have a river grass tile and sufficient food it is my favourite thing to do with that tile early on.

The thing about Cottages is that they don't support early expansion; Settlers/Workers are built with Food+Hammers, not Commerce. If your "Settler pump" is working a bunch of Cottages, you'll expand slowly (of course your research will be high, but earlier cities trumps earlier Cottages pretty fast).

Interestingly, Cottages also mean Granaries, so if I'm planning on rushing a lot I'll move The Wheel up in my tech order. However, I usually Emperor and above, where Happiness is the limiting factor to rushing, not Food (in the early years).

[Nacht]

Originally posted by Dis
maybe this is common knowledge, but at what year to non-animal barbs start appearing?

Let's say noble difficulty, standard map, marathon. Because I'm sure it differs based on map settings.

iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed (found in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml, 35 on Noble) times iBarbPercent (found in CIV4GameSpeedInfo.xml, 400 on Marathon). That would be 1900 BC with your settings.

Marathon is here again atypical, you would expect 300 for iBarbPercent.


Also there should be at least 1.5 cities per civ alive.

[Krill]

Up to Prince I think it is actually better to grow to size 6, put a turn of work into a settler then slave it, and regrow while working cottages. Works against every AI I've played against in CIV.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Re: Re: Re: Re: early tech path strategies

Originally posted by Dominae


How long do you wait before building your first Settler? Do you go for a Wonder first? What are the Happy/Health caps on the difficulty leve you play at?

I've tended recently towards Worker, then a warrior or three (one for the capital and one-two either to explore or to sit somewhere on a hill to catch animals and be ready as garrison for the next city), and a settler is next as long as I have at least a pop of 3. With pop lower than that I feel that it would be worth my time to let the city gain the extra population, since I usually have at least 3 good food/hammer tiles around, and I judge that I'd probably get to my settler just as quickly, if not more quickly, by waiting until those are worked. In that time my worker has usually managed to improve any special resources I have around (provided I have the tech to do so) and would only have lesser productive tiles to look at improving.

I think the happiness and health caps I have at that level are around 6, but health tends to be 8 or so due to forests.

Before I get that settler, I will have managed to (say) mine a hill or two and farm a wheat/rice. Then there will often be only Forests, lesser hills like grassland or desert ones, plains or bare grass and floodplains. Here I would cottage a bare grass or floodplain, so that when I have outrgrown those very good yield tiles, I have a tile to work that is at least 2 food + 1 trade, and will improve sooner rather than later. Often recently my random civ has been Commercial, and I have grass against a river, so I will get 2/3 food + 3 trade as soon as I build the cottage, which isn't a bad little boost.

I agree with food and shields being the priorities, but especially if you don't have some of those early techs that are needed for improvements, chopping or pop-rushing (Animal Husbandry, BW) , I have found that this little trade boost is very useful for getting them. Sure, I could go for these techs earlier instead of Pottery, but with Pottery I have cottages and that tech boost as an option for city #2 straight away also, and I never want to remove many of the forests around a city anyway in the early goings. They are good sources of shields for working whilst I don't have much else worth working.

The beaker boost is particularly needed, I think, seeing just how the AI zeros in on huts so easily.

[couerdelion]

You can't make anything with Shields in this game!!!

Except, perhaps a shield-wall.....

or perhaps a decorative insignia....

or something to keep the rain off your head/keep the arrows dry.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by couerdelion
You can't make anything with Shields in this game!!!

Except, perhaps a shield-wall.....

or perhaps a decorative insignia....

or something to keep the rain off your head/keep the arrows dry.

Ok, sure, right, my terminology is a bit out of date

So, food, hammers and... trade? Which is further divided into gold, beakers and culture/notes..?

[Dominae]

Commercial -> Financial

[Arrian]

Commercial from CivIII is more like Organized than Financial, wouldn't you say? But what he described was indeed FIN.

Good to see you around, Dom.

Playing on prince, I tend to go worker first, then grow to my happy cap +1 and rush a settler (3 pop). That obviously requires BW, though. I'm often playing Egypt, so the Wheel comes with the package

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: early tech path strategies

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Before I get that settler, I will have managed to (say) mine a hill or two and farm a wheat/rice.

Did you start with Mining and Agriculture? What if you had animals instead of grains, and/or mismatched starting techs?

Often recently my random civ has been Commercial, and I have grass against a river, so I will get 2/3 food + 3 trade as soon as I build the cottage, which isn't a bad little boost.

I agree that that's a good tile, and playing Financial civs clearly shifts the argument in your favor. In any case, I don't want this to turn into debate about Cottages, because I happen to think they're pretty darn good. Just not so early.

Again, I wouldn't really want to work Cottages during my expansion: they don't help build Workers or Settlers. I would consider researching the following techs before Pottery (depending on starting location):

Fishing
Agriculture
Mining
Bronze Working
Hunting
Animal Husbandry
Sailing
Religions

The Wheel is actually an interesting case because it's great to have when you get it for free with your civ choice, but it's not something you necessarily want to put anywhere near the top of that list.

I agree with food and shields being the priorities, but especially if you don't have some of those early techs that are needed for improvements, chopping or pop-rushing (Animal Husbandry, BW) , I have found that this little trade boost is very useful for getting them.

I think this is where we're disagreeing the most. If you've got animals you should really be working them ASAP, not waiting to squeeze research out of Cottages to get there. Bronze Working is also something you want ASAP, mainly because it enables Slavery (poprushing is best with a Granary, but generally I think BW should be researched before Pottery). Both these techs also let you know what your military options are.

None of the above techs are particularly expensive (by design); all the tools you need to REX and defend yourself are relatively easy to get without having to do a lot research. Once you've got your cities set up, some Workers running around, and some basic defenses, then it's time to start cottaging everything in sight.

... and I never want to remove many of the forests around a city anyway in the early goings. They are good sources of shields for working whilst I don't have much else worth working.

This sounds a litte inconsistent to me: if you're working all your Forest (or even just your Grassland Forest) plus all your specials, you probably don't have a lot of pop left to work Cottages too. Massive clear-cutting early on is not always best (especially on the higher levels where the Health cap is a major issue), but I wouldn't dismiss the boost you get out of it (especially as India: because Fast Workers can move-and-chop, Hammer-per-turn output is ~25% better than other civs in the turns after the first Worker is ready to go...I more or less made that number up, but you get the picture).

[DrSpike]

I'm not sure how much sense it makes to discuss tech paths out of context. I can't remember two games where I used the same exact path.

The process is more interesting. For me it's something like:

i) Do I want an early religion - if yes then research accordingly
ii) Decide first build - this determines when you need techs to use your early specials effectively
iii) Then take stock as the map has cleared a bit. Possible priorities (non-exhaustive):

Pottery
Bronze (and possibly on to iron)
Writing (and possibly on to Alphabet)
Priesthood

What you do has to depend on what you know about the map and the settings.

[MontyMustDie]

I find that Judaism (Monotheism) is a pretty good bet if you want early religion without postponing your worker and city development (too much). Especially good if you are in a hill-rich environment or if you're lucky enough to start with copper or alternatively stone or marble in your first city. It works best with civilizations that have The Wheel from the start, though.

[couerdelion]

I guess I would tend to put Wheel further up the list than many ancient techs simply because it gives me several things

1) Settlers get to city sites sooner
2) I link up my cities for trade commerce
3) My units can move around to defend against barbarians
4) I can link up with resources
5) I might be able to build chariots.
6) It allows me to research Pottery for the Granary.
7) I can link my capital to a neighbouring civ for the trade benefits

For techs like masonry, hunting and animal husbandry, you can afford to be selective. You can research these if you get a decent enough benefit form improving a resource or two but leave them be if there are better techs to research. Animal husbandry might perhaps be placed up the scale if you want to know where horses are – ie if you don’t get reasonable access to copper.

But as DrSpike says it is very dependent on terrain, traits and starting techs.

[calzetta]

Marathon/Noble/Large.
Start with cultural leader.

The cultural leader gives the possibility to not use obelisk (warlords), and not researchng its related tech (myst? I can't remember well).

I agree that Wheeling is a must at early stages:
* When finished with other improvements, workers keep on working
* I need linkage to resources to reduce health/happiness problems
* Need less military to defend --> More experience points per unit
* Can attack faster if I see colonization on key resources.

I tend to delay Agri, if there is enough food income to support growth (+2/3 per turn), giving priority to other resources

Overall tech priority list:
1. Tech for resources
2. Husbandry
3. BW
4. Writing
5. Fishing/Nav
Then try to shoot for happiness (Monarchy)

With Cultural start, usually settler-first works better than worker-first. For the first city, I look for a hill (2/2/1), if nearby. 20% reduced turns for producing first worker/settler.