early tech path strategies

[Dis]

forgot the screenshot.

I quit the game at this point. I did have some saves. I may replay from the beginning using a different strategy. I didn't do worker first, but I did do a worker second (usually don't build this early). Didn't seem to help much.

I went for writing fairly fast, but I had to do iron working since I had no copper. Perhaps a better strategy would be to go for horseback riding and use horse archers to attack. I waited too long to attack as well. I was trying to build up at least 15 swordsmen. And I was worried about ruining my economy by attacking too early.

there defense bonus also went from 50 to 60% in one turn.

[couerdelion]

The only worry you really have to face with Monty or Toku is that you don’t want to be caught unawares. I think it’s more of a problem with Monty and Napoleon who seem to enjoy taking stacks to the extreme.

Now for the starting, with Elizabeth I would say that your religion of choice is Confucianism (and Taoism). As for starting builds, you’ve not got the option of a scout so it is likely to be workboat if you have seafood and worker otherwise. If you go for worker then you probably want to research one or two of the worker techs depending on the resources you have. For grain resources agriculture is your obvious first choice. In time you’ll want all the improvements you need for the locality but I’d probably look for Bronze Working next to activate the chop and pop-rush and to find Copper.

While pottery is nice, it’s not imperative immediately. What you do want to get is writing because this gives libraries and they give you specialists. If you have marble then Oracle then becomes a big play because you not only get the religion with Code of Laws but also allow the use of Caste System. Now, you can really start churning out the specialists. One of your scientists can also be used to Lightbulb Philosophy so now with Caste System and Pacifism, your specialists are producing 9 GPP each. Since you need to get Mathematics before you can lightbulb Philosophy, I’d be inclined to use the first GS for an Academy.

After Mathematics, you’ll need to take another look at the situation and decide whether you need to fill in the ancient techs or go straight to Literature and get the GLibrary (with your trait and Pacifism this generates 24 GPP/turn or 32 with National Epic)

Obviously you don’t want to forget barbarians and may have to “dance about” a bit if you are without archers, horses or copper.

I think this is the basic play for Lizzie – you’ll notice that her traits are not very complementary – one requiring tile use with the other requiring specialists. The key here is city specialisation so that one works the commerce tiles and another gets the GPs.

[Dis]

you can't see my starting position from here, but it sucks. Rice is my only workable tile (until I get calender- then I got sugar, bananas, and silk). Though I did get lucky and have iron appear in a hill I had mined (and was working). I did not start on the coast, and only have 2 cities on the coast at the start of this war.

I'm determined to try multiple restarts to learn better strategies. But I think this starting position is hopeless. Unless I build less cities and go after the aztecs earlier. But this is difficult with their uu. Can a horse archer take out a jaguar in a city? horse archers are expensive though. Not really worth losing half my invading force.

[Krill]

Dis, I'd suggest playing out a few starts on normal to get the hang of a few basic strats, and then go back to epic.

[couerdelion]

I agree that the start is nothing dramatic which suggests all the more that agro may be your best starting tech. You need food to support specialists (or at least to grow enough to have them) and farmed grasslands seem to be your only option here.

The best anti-jaguar unit you have are swordsman (when the jaguar is in a city) or axemen (when fighting outside the city). In terms of their fighting strength jaguars are nothing special. It’s the longbow and the axe in the city (as well as 60% culture) that is making it a tougher nut to crack than you have anticipated.

[Arrian]

Dis,

Catapults are your friend. Other than a super early rush or settler team whacking expedition, except no substitutes.

I often go worker first. I've taken to doing that most of the time. There are exceptions, of course.

The techs I generally want:

The Wheel (Dom's right that it's not crucial to have right away, but I like to have it early)
Animal Husbandry (horses, path to writing) - though I may drop it if there are no cows/pigs/sheep nearby.
Agriculture if I have farmable resources (hunting if I have campable ones)
Mining
BW (copper, slavery)
Pottery

I often play the Inca or Egypt.

I tend to go with Confu as my religion, so I don't worry about mysticism -> for a little while. The basic worker techs come first. Then I have my early worker to use them. Sometimes I build a second worker early on, though I prefer nabbing one from an AI neighbor

As for wonders... I love 'em and all, they can hinder you as much or more than they help you. The Great Library, however, is always worth getting, IMO. I do think you're making a mistake not going for that.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

I've been utilizing catapult-heavy attack forces lately, Dis. I'm talking about an axeman or two for cover (and maybe a spear or chariots if the enemy has horsies) and a stack of ~6 catapults. Early, that's nigh-unstoppable (by the AI).

-Arrian

[Dis]

yeah from the screenie, I was researching construction.

Can catapults do anything against longbowmen though? Do you guys bombard defenses down to 0% first?

I admit, I almost never build them (usually for defense). I hate sacrificing units, yet come to think of it, I do it all the time with swordsmen and axemen. I expect to lose 4 attackers when attacking a city with 12 units. I still prefer fast attack forces. though obviously above I was not using it. I should have used horse archers and attacked earlier.

[fed1943]

Unless some very special event:
1) Bombard to 0%
2) Against 12 units, collateral damages to all big defenders;
3) Attack (if at all possible, try this step before reinforcements
can arrive or powerful defenders can counterattack; the sure
way is to do it in 1 turn).

Best regards,

[Arrian]

Longbows are nasty. You will take losses, but if you bring enough cats you can take down longbows, yes. Protective civs may be prohibitively expensive to attack if they have longbows and you don't have trebuchets.

Bombard to 0 unless you have superior troops that have high odds of success even with some defense left in the city.

Attack all in one go. You can't let them heal/promote. Use city raider promos on your 'pults.

-Arrian

[dojoboy]

If I'm playing a spiritual trait civ, I may possibly go for a religion early.

Otherwise, I always tech the tile improvement techs for what resources, etc. is in my immediate area.

My first build is also always a worker. I do go for some wonders, particularly those that increase wealth and happiness.

[joncnunn]

Re: early tech path strategies

Depends in large part on the resources and the general lay of the land.

Often the oppertunity cost for an oracle (even with stone nearby) is a major delay in getting a couple of very good early city sites up and running.

And without Marble, Great Library could delay a couple of cities as well.

Originally posted by Dis
in the other thread I mention the techs I go for. Perhaps I'm making a mistake. I never build wonders such as the oracle and great library. Is this hurting me?

I start off by going for an early religion. I play at a level I can do this. Usually Poly (hinduism). Then go for hunting and archery so I can defend my cities. Then I research worker techs such as masonry, pottery, wheel, agriculture, animal husbandry. And techs such as bronze working. I get scared if I can't find bronze and iron early. As the barbs scare me. Though I often build the great wall. Sometimes I make the mistake of building the great wall, only to realize by the time it's built, the ai has expanded over to me and barbs aren't a threat anyways.

What are some alternative early research paths?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Re: Re: early tech path strategies

Originally posted by Dominae
I think this is a mistake. Even with Raging Barbs on there's time to research the tile improvement techs before moving to Archery to defend yourself. They don't threaten you before then, so you can make do with just Warriors. I usually wait until after Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry to go for Archery, and then only if I don't have either Copper or Horses. By prioritizing the tile improvements techs first you're in a much better position to defend yourself whatever units you decide to build.

Hi Dom!

I'm glad to hear this - I do the same, and even though I'm playing on Noble/breaking into the next level up, I don't think Archery is needed until after the terrain improvements, maybe a religion if you can get one/two and BW. Maybe if you want a mega-early war and have no Copper or Horses. Otherwise strategically placed Warriors can handle any non-animal Barbs until you start getting too many Barb Archers or Axemen, especially with the combat bonuses you get against them at such lower levels.

The Wheel you can actually delay, too, unless you've got some Flood Plains you want to put Cottages on right away. Usually it's just better for the Worker to move around without Roads than spend time building them. Other than the Pottery case I just mentioned, I'll only research it once I'm about to build military units (assuming the resource is not already on my trade network via rivers).

Now this puzzles me a bit - unless I have popped a settler somehow or there are a lot of special resources around my capital, I find I need Pottery and hence cottages to have something constructive for my worker to do before city #2. Once I've maybe irrigated a grass or two (or a fp), put in a mine and attached any special resources, there's often not much for my worker to do except build a cottage or two, unless I have a really great city site. The earlier the better for cottages, of course, and if I have a river grass tile and sufficient food it is my favourite thing to do with that tile early on.

Sure, I can chop a forest or two if I get BW, but I don't like denuding the area of forests totally so early on - if i leave a few then I can use them when I really need something built quickly, and there's a chance of further forest growth in the vicinity.

[Dis]

maybe this is common knowledge, but at what year to non-animal barbs start appearing?

Let's say noble difficulty, standard map, marathon. Because I'm sure it differs based on map settings.

[Quillan]

I think it depends on difficulty and raging settings on/off, rather than size, but I could be wrong. I don't know the specifics.