A Better AI.

[Yakk]

If you aren't fighting, war only reduces the rate your war weariness goes away.

If you have no war weariness, there is no cost to being in a war you aren't fighting.

So if Isabella isn't fighting a war with anyone else, the war isn't hurting her. Why should she make peace?

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Yakk
So if Isabella isn't fighting a war with anyone else, the war isn't hurting her. Why should she make peace?

But it is hurting her, as this makes the player hate her, she just made it to the #1 spot on the who-to-take-out-as-soon-as-possible list

[Thedrin]

But it is hurting her, as this makes the player hate her, she just made it to the #1 spot on the who-to-take-out-as-soon-as-possible list

Wouldn't fully agree with you there. In the given situation it'll take a fair amount of resources to march an army with the potential for victory over to Spanish territory which gives Isabella something of an economic advantage.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Yakk
So if Isabella isn't fighting a war with anyone else, the war isn't hurting her. Why should she make peace?

Because it's destroying the balance of the game? If she is in a state of perpetual warfare with you, you're always left thinking that she just might find a way of sending a SoD your way at any time. So your only option for developing your civ is to behave like a warmonger yourself. This game is supposed to be about options, about being able to choose different ways of pursueing a victory. But with this type of behaviour going on, the strategy has been reduced to only one path.

[Jaybe]

Cold wars can be beneficial. Instead of getting the Mongols to declare war against Spain, sjm could have just coughed up some gold. Too much hubris on sjm's part, if you ask me.

There is no dishonor in giving a poor AI some gold. And even Better AI are still poor AI (i.e., handicapped vs. player).

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Thedrin
Wouldn't fully agree with you there. In the given situation it'll take a fair amount of resources to march an army with the potential for victory over to Spanish territory which gives Isabella something of an economic advantage.

That's not disagreeing, that's saying that you didn't quite get what I was trying to say: "who-to-take-out-as-soon-as-possible" means for me that as soon as I'm strong enough and have a strong enough economy, then she's high on the "to-take-out" list. Or with other words: When I'm ready to attack the civs that are on other continents I'll probably take her out before attacking the more friendly civs on continents closer to my home

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Jaybe
There is no dishonor in giving a poor AI some gold.

Yes there is in situations like this, where the AI gets just a little out of the war as you do

[zeace]

Originally posted by Adagio


That's not disagreeing, that's saying that you didn't quite get what I was trying to say: "who-to-take-out-as-soon-as-possible" means for me that as soon as I'm strong enough and have a strong enough economy, then she's high on the "to-take-out" list. Or with other words: When I'm ready to attack the civs that are on other continents I'll probably take her out before attacking the more friendly civs on continents closer to my home

It sounds to me like Izzie isn't afraid of being on your "who-to-take-out-as-soon-as-possible" list. Until you have an army she doesn't care about your threats

[Adagio]

Originally posted by zeace
It sounds to me like Izzie isn't afraid of being on your "who-to-take-out-as-soon-as-possible" list. Until you have an army she doesn't care about your threats

But why should I build an army when nobody has Astronomy (or is close getting it) and there are no threats nearby? When there are no threats it's better building up my economy, which makes it easier to build an army when Astronomy gets researched

[sjm]

Well she did have units outside of her own borders - mostly naval units. So I'd be surprised if she didn't have ANY war weariness.

Generally it went something like this:
- Isabella declares war
- I panic and hastily move some units to the coast nearest her
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- A galleon turns up; I sink it
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- 2 frigates and a galleon with 3 macemen turn up; I sink them
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- Isabella plunders a fishing boat with a caravel. I sink it.
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- I wait, twiddling my thumbs
- 1 frigate, 1 galleon with more crap on board turn up. I sink them.
- repeat ad infinitum


I was sufficiently technologically advanced not to have to worry too much apart from if she sent over an absolutely massively huge SoD.

But, she may well have been pumping loads of resources into units (I assume she was, that's what the AI does when at war) thoug. And that's the problem. It was no big deal for me (I didn't switch to a military economy just to counter a few ships) - but I shudder to think how many useless units Isabella made. OK, so they were of some use when the Mongols attacked. But the AI needs to be more intelligent regarding war and peace.

There's no point in declaring war, not fighting that war, but switching to a war economy anyway. Humans realise that (and in the event of the AI being lame and not attacking, we don't change strategy).

n.b. when I did take the war to her, she crumbled like a house of cards. I guess she never recovered from sacrificing infrastructure for an army she didn't need that wasn't fighting a war she couldn't win.

[Jaybe]

sjm, this was Civ4 vanilla, I assume (caravels cannot plunder fishing boats in Warlords).

[Willem]

Originally posted by sjm
I was sufficiently technologically advanced not to have to worry too much apart from if she sent over an absolutely massively huge SoD.

Which is fine if you only have one civ to worry about, but if you have 4 of them behaving the same way like I did in one game, it's gets a bit ridiculous. I could never go on the offensive with any of them since I was always concerned about some SoD showing up on my borders from one of them at any time, and I also had to fend of the 2 that were actually on my borders. The game got really tedious quickly until I finally just gave up and quit.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Willem


Which is fine if you only have one civ to worry about, but if you have 4 of them behaving the same way like I did in one game, it's gets a bit ridiculous. I could never go on the offensive with any of them since I was always concerned about some SoD showing up on my borders from one of them at any time, and I also had to fend of the 2 that were actually on my borders. The game got really tedious quickly until I finally just gave up and quit.

Thus demonstrating how tactics is often subordinate to strategy, each as a skill to be utilized to one's benefit.

Wodan

[Willem]

Originally posted by wodan11

Thus demonstrating how tactics is often subordinate to strategy, each as a skill to be utilized to one's benefit.

Wodan

Huh?

And what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

[Jaybe]

You "quit" the bleepin' game, Willem. You LOST -- you were BEATEN by being forced into "tedium." The AI WON the game.

And that is how your tactics were subordinated to strategy of the AI.