Warlords Team Democracy Game?

[Paddy]

Locutus

I would ask that you bring the poll into the general community of Civ 4.

let all the players of civ have a say, and be able to find the poll

having it in the Civ4 Team Demogame forum certainly restricts those who will see it...

struth the Civ4 Team Demogame forum is not a place with a lot of traffic as it is...

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Zoid
Locutus, don´t bother with the poll man... Since when has Poly been a democracy? Don´t try to give this crap a veneer of democracy and justice, We both know it´s a play for the galleries...

Apolyton has ALWAYS greatly valued input from the community -- the community has made us great and we can only exist at the grace of our community, we ARE our community. In fact, most DGs (at least ones that didn't have an obvious huge demand) have been preceded by a open Yes/No poll so we're not doing anything very spectacular here, we're following past procedures.

Yes, in the end decisions are always made by the administration and in that we are not a democracy, but I don't know of ANY decision we EVER made where we did not listen to feedback from our community (even if it wasn't always very publicly). Even the oft-quoted 'undemocratic' decision to abolish post count in the OT was at the time backed up by a very strong current in the community of calls to reduce the overkill of spam in that forum at that time -- something people easily forget now the problem has disappeared (*because* of the measures we took). And this poll will not be a simple number game that if more people vote for option X we will do X, but we will certainly weigh that opinion heavily, regardless of what X might be. Just as we will weigh any other option -- we will consider all opinions regardless of how much support they have and look for a solution that works for everyone if at all possible or at least for most people if not.

Again I stress that the decision on whether to support this game has not been made yet. Contrary to what some people seem to be suggesting we are actually leaning towards supporting it but want to hear from everyone before making a decision. AFAIK we have NEVER given our community the false impression that they had a say in something when they really didn't and we aren't about to change this.

Some very genuine issues are being raised with regards to future patches, overstretching resources, etc by some people with a lot of experience in exactly these issues. To not have an open, comprehensive and balanced discussion on this before making any decision would be bad for everyone, regardless of whether you run this game on Apolyton or elsewhere. You would greatly disadvantage yourself by not doing what the Apolyton administration is doing by listening to all arguments and thinking about ways to overcome the problems presented, for they are very real and *will* affect your game one way or another, even if you run it on CGN.

Our aim is to give everyone the best possible experience on this site, regardless of whether your name is Zoid or Tass or fed or whatever and regardless of whether you have been here for 6 years or 3 months or how much DG experience you have had in the past. If we in the end decide not to support this game it is because we believe we would be acting against your own interest by doing so, not because we have anything against you or play favourites against other individuals or whatever. If that feels patronising to you I apologise, but we do have the interests of a whole community to represent (including but not only you) and are basing our decisions on several decades of combined experience in managing said community -- based on that we do like to think that we have at least some vague inkling of an idea of what works, what doesn't and where problems could arise. Again, we WANT to see this game happen, but we also want to make sure it is a success and doesn't just leave a lot of people bitter and disappointed after a few months because it's not going as everyone thought it would and ends up destroying other games on the side. That would be the worst thing that could happen for everyone, regardless of what side of the debate you are now. It could break up our entire community permanently (I've seen it happen).

[Metaliturtle]

Our community has been broken up permanently?

I thought it was working fine...

[ChrisiusMaximus]

just who do you think you are ? this is becoming a nanny state ?

ET others lives are just that, none of your business !

The players signed up for this have agreed on a fast paced two team game, it really does not matter what the noteable few feel think or do, the question remains just who is this site for ? The noteable few or the great many that come here to play games ???

This sucks big time of hypocrisy and hidden agendae, im out of here the smell is just too bad......

[Nubclear]

Yes, its teh conspiracy!!!1 :tass:

Fine, start your game. I've had this discussion too many times for too many dying DGs...."Oh! The turn is playing quickly! I mean, just because people aren't posting doesn't mean its dead!!!1"
"This other demogame won't impact anything!! We really want to play!!1"
etc etc
Such was the undignified end of the ACDGs
But I guess if the criterion for an "active game" is having it played like a PBEM instead of having it played by the active participation of the community....whatever.
If you are all indeed active and commited enough to keep it fun and vibrant, then go ahead. But experience is telling me that such is not the case

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
Locutus

I would ask that you bring the poll into the general community of Civ 4.

let all the players of civ have a say, and be able to find the poll

having it in the Civ4 Team Demogame forum certainly restricts those who will see it...

struth the Civ4 Team Demogame forum is not a place with a lot of traffic as it is...

This thread is already in the General forum so anyone interested in this DG should be able to find it. In addition, news items and forum announcements are forthcoming to further help getting the word out. I deliberately choose the DG forum because this thread is already here (if it had been in the DG forum I might have started the poll here) so it helps spread the word to a different forum increasing the chance people will see it. And the DG forum is the most visible place for DGers, who obviously are the target group for this issue. In addition, while the main forum is not very active, someone else pointed out quite correctly that the private subforums are very active indeed (I have access to all of them so I keep an eye on that), I assume all those people peek into the main forum from time to time.

But as said in that thread, you are more than welcome to help spread the word on this issue in other places where it is relevant: in your various Team forums, in the SPDG forum, maybe even in the Civ3 DG forums, etc. As long as you don't go completely overboard you won't get in trouble for spamming, we want as many people as possible to be aware of this issue and to join the discussion (or at least to vote).

[Zoid]

Locutus, you´ve made you point excruciatingly clear. Clearly it is in my best interest to get out of here for a while...

[Locutus]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
just who do you think you are ? this is becoming a nanny state ?

Who am I? I am a representative of the owners of this site, the people who have worked blood, sweat and tears (and not to mention invested a lot of money) for over a decade to bring you this site. The people who you are asking to set up forums and civgroups for this game, who have to monitor the community and deal with any problems that arise -- which they HAVE in the past -- and deal with any insults we might get if we screw up in someone's view -- which we HAVE in the past. We are all volunteers who do this for our own pleasure, we're not running a business and you're not a paying client. Setting up and maintaining a DG on Apolyton takes a significant effort on our part, I think we are entitled to a say in this... If you feel we are denying you a service you are by all means entitled to go elsewhere to set up a community there. We greatly appreciate your contribution to our community and would very much like to keep you here and happy if possible, but we are not your slaves and cannot always do your bidding if it conflicts with other interests we have.

Again, we will always want to work with you guys to give you what you need, but you are not the only users on this site, if what we do for you affects other people (and this DOES, whether you see that or not) we have to take their wishes into account as well. Again, want this game to happen and we want it to be successful. But just giving you guys two forums and letting things unfold doesn't guarantee that success. Actions have consequences and starting an DG now may cause you or us regret a few months down the line. We've been around long enough to know that and are trying to anticipate that and take measures ahead of time. Not because we like E_T so much or dislike you, but because we've been around and want to avoid problems in the future. We are acting in YOUR interest. If you find that patronising we're sorry but someone has to run this site and make the final decisions and who else should do that be if not its owners?

it really does not matter what the noteable few feel think or do,

I don't give a sh*t how 'notable' people feel about this, but if a 100 people are affected by a game created to please 20, I have to take the opinion of those 100 people into account. That doesn't make the wishes of those 20 people void, but I can't ignore those 100 either. That's the whole point of this discussion, to figure out where EVERYONE stands and not just the notable few who have contributed so far. Explain to me how if we just listen to E_T and Klor & Co we are listening to 'just a few notable people' but how if we only listen to you and completely ignore any other opinion we are somehow different?

This sucks big time of hypocrisy and hidden agendae, im out of here the smell is just too bad......

If you are making accusations, have the guts to back them up: point out to me what exactly we are doing that is hypocritical and why? What is our hidden agenda?

Our only agenda has always been to do whatever is best for the community, what is best for YOU. And considering how much time you've spent on this site over the years I can only assume you're happy with the way we've done so in the past and I can assure you we haven't changed our course. Again, we WANT to support this game but we don't want to create a problem down the line by doing so.

[Thomas Hobbes]

Personally, I don't see why people not either playing the current Team or Single Democracy Game or people who play the current TDG/SDG but don't intend to play the Warlords TDG should be allowed to vote on this poll.

I mean, irrespective of if we get to play the Warlords TDG, I'm not going to participate in the current TDG/SDG (as I really like to play Warlords at the moment), so the decision if we get to play this has no effect whatsoever on the currently running TDG/SDG for this group of people (like me).
Likewise, the group of people playing the current TDG or SDG but don't intent to play a possible Warlords TDG shouldn't have a vote either as it doesn't concern them.

Therefore, I'd only let people decide who either play any of the current Democracy games AND intend to play the Warlords Democracy game (Ask the, if they're going to be less active in the currently running democracy games, etc) or who neither play any of the current ones, but WILL join one/both of them if the Warlords one is not going to happen.

That's how democracy works, right; Only the people get to decide who are concerned .

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Locutus


This thread is already in the General forum so anyone interested in this DG should be able to find it. In addition, news items and forum announcements are forthcoming to further help getting the word out. I deliberately choose the DG forum because this thread is already here (if it had been in the DG forum I might have started the poll here) so it helps spread the word to a different forum increasing the chance people will see it. And the DG forum is the most visible place for DGers, who obviously are the target group for this issue. In addition, while the main forum is not very active, someone else pointed out quite correctly that the private subforums are very active indeed (I have access to all of them so I keep an eye on that), I assume all those people peek into the main forum from time to time.

But as said in that thread, you are more than welcome to help spread the word on this issue in other places where it is relevant: in your various Team forums, in the SPDG forum, maybe even in the Civ3 DG forums, etc. As long as you don't go completely overboard you won't get in trouble for spamming, we want as many people as possible to be aware of this issue and to join the discussion (or at least to vote).

good stuff

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Thomas Hobbes
Personally, I don't see why people not either playing the current Team or Single Democracy Game or people who play the current TDG/SDG but don't intend to play the Warlords TDG should be allowed to vote on this poll.

I mean, irrespective of if we get to play the Warlords TDG, I'm not going to participate in the current TDG/SDG (as I really like to play Warlords at the moment), so the decision if we get to play this has no effect whatsoever on the currently running TDG/SDG for this group of people (like me).
Likewise, the group of people playing the current TDG or SDG but don't intent to play a possible Warlords TDG shouldn't have a vote either as it doesn't concern them.

Therefore, I'd only let people decide who either play any of the current Democracy games AND intend to play the Warlords Democracy game (Ask the, if they're going to be less active in the currently running democracy games, etc) or who neither play any of the current ones, but WILL join one/both of them if the Warlords one is not going to happen.

That's how democracy works, right; Only the people get to decide who are concerned .

I like your thinking mate

but sadly that is not the case here

the poll is open for any of the 60 000 members to drop by and vote

whether they even own a copy of Civ v. I, II, III or IV

bloody hell, imagine that the system would die if all the members showed up

[Beta]

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus

This site needs to clear out the trash ...

Be careful what you wish for.

[Paddy]

really...

thought this was a gamers site...

[Krill]

Hmm, why is it that the people on either side of this arguement come from two different demogame teams?

[Paddy]

could it be that some want to have fun playing the game Civ...

where others just want to spoil said fun???