Most useless civ = Celts?

[Adagio]

Originally posted by LzPrst
Re: Most useless civ = Celts?

In the two games I've played (ok, I'm still playing my second game... work takes too much time) the Celts have always been among the civs with the highest score. In my current game the Celts even has like 4-5 civs as vassals

[Dis]

I have yet to see the celts do anything. Vikings seem to do pretty good. agressive means they don't get their ass kicked, and financial means they can keep their research up.

[Virdrago]

The game I just lost (damn Frederick and his spaceship), the Celts had the third highest score. They even vassalized the Romans (twice). Take that, Julius.

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by LzPrst
play a highlands map? is that the only time you should have use for a UU? when you play one very specific maptype?

You could say that for most every UU:

SEALs are only useful on island maps;
Panzers are only useful when fighting an enemy with oil;
Quechas are only useful if you're close to an AI start position;
Praetorians are only useful if you have iron;
Janissaries are only useful if you beeline for Gunpowder;

and so on.

The nature of unique civilizations necessarily implies imperfect playing options. That imperfection leads to the Holy Grail of all gaming: challenge.

If you want to play a game designed with absolute balance try chess. Scratch that, even in chess someone goes first.

[Dis]

and I take that back about the celts not doing anything. My past few games they have been kicking serious ass.

[LzPrst]

seals have a bonus and that is actually useful. but your argument is that marines in general are useless on non-island maps. nonsense!

also, seals have 1-2 first strikes AND they start with March in addition to regular marine stats. that is a general boost that is useful lots of places. it is not the celtic base unit in itself that I am declaring useless. swordsmen are very useful. it is the UU bonus that is useless unless you're on a higlands map. a marine\seal is useful on ANY map that has coastal cities, and they are much stronger than the normal marine unit.

panzers are not very good, but they are still useful. ironically they are better for defence than attack. you just have to choose your battles. very useful for taking out tanks entering your lands or enemy tanks within reach. it is a 50% strength bonus against an enemy with tanks. fairly specific, but provided the enemy has tanks, strong. remember tanks are easily the strongest offensive unit of the era and they have collateral damage. taking the enemies tanks out will blunt any punch he has giving you the initiative. not to mention the german UB. holy cow! give this to freddy and he'll have all the great engineers he could use, and then some.

quechas are only useful if you have an enemy nearby? do you play huge maps with only 3 civs? there's alway some damned AI right next to me in my games. it's quite scary to see 2-3 of those coming towards a poorly defended capital early in the game. useful for rushes. and if archer barbs appear, which they always do, kill all those barb archers with your quechas then upgrade those highly experienced quechas to axemen when you get bronzeworking. heeeeelp! danger danger! also inca UB = creative trait for early game purposes. neat-o.

praetorians only useful if you have iron? if you're playing the romans and havent gotten iron somehow you're guilty of gross incompetence or victim of the worst map situation ever. but consider that the same goes for celts, without iron they wont get their UU. the difference is in the strengths of the UU. compare praets strength bonus with gallic warrior strengths, theres no contest. EVEN ON A HILL! +25% great people production with roman markets. with a few of them you're practically philosophical!

unless you're way behind in tech there will very likely be enemy archers, melee units and mounted units running around by the time you get gunpowder as ottomans. knights are still useful for a while when gunpowder first appears. as are macemen and longbowmen. you will smash these with janissaries. use them against weaker less developed opponents and take all their land. and the UB, +2 happy on aqueduct? omg! that's great!


and what do the celts get? +20% defence bonus on hills for Scouts, Archers, Swordsmen, Crossbowmen, Longbowmen and Musketmen. thats from their UU AND UB.

I am not asking that the game be without uniqueness, but it should be somewhat balanced. and frankly, the celts have gotten the shortest straw here and I think that should be corrected by giving them a boost that makes their UU/UB more useful so it corresponds with the usefulness of other civ's UU/UB's. frankly carnal, I find your arguments oversimplified, grossly exaggerated and quite flawed.

[Blaupanzer]

The highlands point was meant as a bit of a joke in itself, since the bonus is only defensive. Defensive swordsmen seem a little silly. The bonus should be guerilla I AND II so that the unit gets that extra move on hills from the start and can go for III for the attack into hills bonus without spending 2 promotions.

Have noticed that the leader traits work on occasion as the Celts sometimes do well as an AI. However, this is in spite of its UU/UB combo, not because of it.

[MasterDave]

An easy fix for Gallic Swordsmen- revert to their Civ 3 ability and just give them two movement points instead of that Guerilla 1 thing. Then they go from being one of the crappiest UU's to one of the best and the Celts are one of the better races to pick.

Their unique building is ok as it is. A building that can be used for the entire game, does not go obsolete, and affects every unit built in that city isn't really that bad, especially if you have lots of hilly terrain. Many of the other UB's are also pretty weak, and many of them appear too late in the game to really be useful (the game is usually decided by the modern age).

[MasterDave]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
The highlands point was meant as a bit of a joke in itself, since the bonus is only defensive. Defensive swordsmen seem a little silly. The bonus should be guerilla I AND II so that the unit gets that extra move on hills from the start and can go for III for the attack into hills bonus without spending 2 promotions.

Have noticed that the leader traits work on occasion as the Celts sometimes do well as an AI. However, this is in spite of its UU/UB combo, not because of it.

I agree that Guerilla I is purely defensive, but Guerilla II can be quite a potent weapon as it allows two movement points as long as the first tile you move into is a hill. I would rather have the Celt UU just have two movement points out of the box, as I posted above.

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by LzPrst
Most useless UU\UB = Celts

Haven't played as the Greeks lately, have you? I'll take the Gallic swordsman and the dun over the phalanx and the odeon most of the time.

I don't view the Gallic swordsman as a bad unique unit - certainly not one of the best but not a bad one either. Hills are common enough on standard settings that the defensive bonus isn't marginal (and means that green gallics against green axemen only recieve a -5% penalty instead of a -25% penalty) and the extra movement point from Guerilla II will usually give a fair speed boost to your offenses. I'd definetly take it as the first promotion for the majority of my gallics unless I get some unusually flat terrain.

Guerilla III is something of a red herring though. It's not always going to be particularly useful. Aggressive swordsmen may often take cover as their next promotion before going through the CR promotions if the next city to be attacked is defended by archers but otherwise will often go for CR bonuses first. This situation occurs fairly often - Gallic swordsmen facing a city on a hill won't occur very regularly.

[padillah]

I went the same route as MasterDave, kind of. I upped the strength to 7 instead of 6 on my Gaelic Warriors.

Maybe I'll change that to Guerilla I and II but I think I'll just stay where I am. I play little enough as it is.

I feel UU's should be more special than just a little tiny bit. And 20% but only on defense and only from hills is a little tiny bit.

Tom P.

[Blake]

I like the Celts traits. They have the combination of Spiritual + Starting Mysticism, almost guaranteeing a religion.
They are the kings of easy happiness - you tend to really appreciate this on higher difficulties, Celts pretty much enjoy a prince level happy cap - on emperor .

[Dis]

I think a big issues is with defensive UU's. I never cared for them myself. Rarely do they come into play in my games. In fact, I have never actually played the greeks. Even with Mansa Musa, I rarely use the skirmisher on offense. It's too early to be taking lots of cities at that point. The maintenance will kill you.

[Virdrago]

I'm playing as the Celts right now.

Don't really need the UU, though the dun is useful on border cities with hills (I only have two - not using it effectively?).

Love the traits. Very powerful together. Large pops, cheap level 3 and 4 units. Keeps the AI at bay (generally).

I wouldn't say this Civ would be great on MP, but it works on SP very well.

[LzPrst]

once again. the thread should be changed to most useless UU/UB.

and if anyone can find a worse combo then post away. but I for one, can not.