The Decline of Islam

[paleman]

As several have demonstrated, depending on the game and the settings, Islam can do quite well. So why change it? You just have to work harder to spread it. Historically, Islam was initially spread by conquest, not missionaries. Hint hint.

[TheArsenal]

On Huge Custom Continent maps, you can get some non-typical spreading of religion from time to time. My least favorite is when I am stuck on a continent where a religion isn’t founded and doesn’t spread to me for centuries. For me, that’s the starting formula for a loss.

Even for a huge continent map, this is a pretty rare spread. As a rule, any early religion founded by me is going to get a good global foothold because I end up owning many cities and I spread religion heavily across the map to help keep my economy afloat. But Hinduism at 1% should be near impossible. I usually see Hinduism and Buddhism battle it out for dominance early with Confucianism or Christianity giving it a good run. But there were some peculiarities in unused space/tundra/ice on this map that made it a Barb haven for quite a long while. And as you can see, they had field day with India and the Mali.

[Provost Harrison]

I like the idea that religions should be able to spread to cities that already have religions, albeit with a lower probability of success...ie, 100%, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30...anyway to mod this in?

[Virdrago]

Keeping in that vein, with cities gaining multiple religions, maybe larger cities should have a higher probability of success. It should be harder to get a size 2 city with four religions, while a size 9 keeps on failing to get a second one

[_BuRjaCi_]

Originally posted by Virdrago
Keeping in that vein, with cities gaining multiple religions, maybe larger cities should have a higher probability of success. It should be harder to get a size 2 city with four religions, while a size 9 keeps on failing to get a second one

Makes sense.

[eris]

I have thought about Islam and its corresponding underutilization. Firaxis tried to make the religions all equal, which is a good thing, but even they had to muck with things a little. Therefore, the later religions receive a free missionary to help get them started. This, in itself, is already a difference between the religions. Since it has become noticed during our collective thousands of hours of gameplay that the missionary adjustment does not work well enough to equalize Islam, I make what I feel is a suggestion within the game mechanics.

Instead of just a missionary, the Civ who founds Islam also gets the Holy Shrine pre-built.

This allows several interesting results. The little cities that pop up on the edge of empires in the later game could become a source of Islam cities due to natural propagation. A Civ that has not been able to get a religion gets the last one complete with Shrine, which is a good bit of catching up. A Civ that has been getting nothing but Great Engineers and so forth has a chance to get a Shrine without a Great Prophet. The Civ that gets Islam has a strong monetary inducement to spread Islam right away. The inducement for founding Islam and getting the equivalant of a free Great Prophet is greater.

It seems a simple change with several interesting side effects. Would this idea adequately increase the value of Divine Right for people?

[Virdrago]

Great idea

Adds some nice wrinkles, and gives Islam a better chance.

I've never seen Taoism do anything, either - maybe it could get something?

Ancient Age:
First three religions - early start (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism)

Early to mid-Classical Age:
Christianity and Confucianism - missionary

Late Classical to Medieval Age:
Taoism and Islam - missionary and shrine?

Evens it out a bit.

[Virdrago]

Another idea, tied to the age you're in. If you found a religion while you're in the Ancient age, you won't get a missionary, but you will if you are in the Classical age and you will also have the shrine built if you found a religion in the Medieval age or later. That way, it may force a decision whether to go after that religion before or after researching another tech, putting you in the later age, or hoping someone else doesn't found it while you were trying to get an advantage, thus losing your chance at a religion.

Technically, you could get Judaism with a missionary then, or Christianity with it's shrine, but those cases would be extremely rare.

Thoughts?

[MasterDave]

I maintain that the best way to solve this problem is just to randomize the order that religions are founded. Thus, whomever gets meditiation first has a 1 in 7 chance to found Islam, Buddhism, or any one of the other religions. It will add variety to games, and fix the problem of one or two religions always getting the shaft on free spreading opportunities.

[Dis]

I wouldn't mind that too much. I just hate always being Hindu (as I have little chance of getting Buddhism unless I start with Mysticism). Nothing against hindus. Lately I've been going for judaism. But the later religions just seem so much cooler.

Who wouldn't want to be Islamic and spread their religion through bloody warfare?

[_BuRjaCi_]

Originally posted by Dis
I wouldn't mind that too much. I just hate always being Hindu (as I have little chance of getting Buddhism unless I start with Mysticism). Nothing against hindus. Lately I've been going for judaism. But the later religions just seem so much cooler.

Who wouldn't want to be Islamic and spread their religion through bloody warfare?

Or Christianity for that matter.

[Tattila the Hun]

Yah, a chance for your religion spreading at the tip your swords would be nice...

And a chance for the enemy religion being... eradicated.

[Forwarn45]

I like the randomized religion idea. I don't like the shrine as it's a little too good IMO. I'd prefer giving more (2 or maybe 3) free missionaries to the later religions. Maybe this could be partially dependent on mapsize.

[Badtz Maru]

I like the idea of giving religions bonuses based on what era they are discovered in, it's simple and both balances and complicates the game.

The problem with making all religions equal in game terms is that they can't be, they are all inherently different based on what tech is used to found it. Religion founders frequently have a certain playstyle that determines what religion they get. Hinduism and Buddhism especially usually go to civilizations that start with Mysticism and concentrate on religion. Judaism frequently will go to one of the religious civilizations that lost the race to Hinduism, or those with a Masonry/Organized Religion based strategy. Builders frequently get Confucianism while fighters seem more likely to get the techs for Christianity.

Any balancing between the religions has to take this into consideration. Yes, Taoism is a late religion with an expensive technology, and you'd think it should get almost as good a boost as Islam, but Philosophy is a hugely important tech and being the first to Philosophy often means being first to Liberalism. As mentioned repeatedly by others, Divine Right is one of the less desirable technologies. I frequently skip it entirely, or only grab it if I'm really ahead and want to grab as many of the religions as I can. Divine Right is due a boost and I think making Islam a stronger religion would be an interesting way to do it.

[kiky]

why not both randomize religion AND bonus according to age ?