Traits Discussion Thread

[ElConejo]

I hope that this thread will shortly grow to discuss the pros cons and strategies of all (if not most) of the traits in Vanilla Civ4 (havent had the heart to buy 30 bucks worth of an expansion this early..)

So, looking over the various traits, this time around some of the big names have Expansive... I havent used expansive much, but from the looks of it in the manual the trait doesnt seem to bring much to the table... how much of a difference can +2 health and some cheeper granaries and harbors do?

*NOTE: I have not played nearly enough to make any judgements so far, I just am going from what I have seen and read thus far, and am looking forward to the comments and ideas of other players*

Thanks.

[Smellycowsquid]

One of my favorite traits is Spirtual-I really don't like anarchy, having the pyramids makes for a great combo.

[ElConejo]

Originally posted by Smellycowsquid
One of my favorite traits is Spirtual-I really don't like anarchy, having the pyramids makes for a great combo.

I agree completely, its on my top three choices with Financial and Aggressive.

[Smellycowsquid]

Fin and Spi- that's why I love the Mali!

[Proteus_MST]

Financial - Creative,
which is why I preferred Catherine from Russia in Civ IV vanilla.

Rapidly expanding cultural borders even without a single cultural building in your cities, not having to worry about your cities being culturally dominated by another civ and having enough money to support a large number of cities, that´s why I love this combo.

[ElConejo]

I was under the impression (because of posts I had read) that Creative wasnt all that hot, but I see your point about cultural production without buildings...

But still I have yet to hear anyone comment on my OP and my question regarding expansive, is it worth anything at all?

[Arrian]

Lots of people like Creative. I'm not one of them.

I, like many others, think Expansionist is kinda crap. It's better than it used to be (now +3 health instead of +2). It could be that it really shines on higher levels of play (because of more unhealthiness on those levels). In general, I prefer just about any other trait (other than CRE).

-Arrian

[Quillan]

When I first started playing, I LOVED Creative for exactly that reason. Now, once I've learned a lot of the ins and outs of the game, I can live without it. I much prefer Financial and Organized, but unfortunately Warlords has nerfed Washington in that regard. I've been experimenting with the new combinations some. I just won a game as Julius, and Organized more than made up for the lack of the Financial trait. I really like Mansa as well, for the Spiritual/Financial combination. I think the two best ones are Organized and Financial, but with Warlords I don't think there are any leaders that have both. Perhaps that's a good thing.

[Velociryx]

ElConejo,

Expansive's main strength does not come from its health bonus...that is merely a nice perk (a VERY nice perk on higher difficulty levels, where health and happiness are hard to come by, this trait can save your life).

No...it's main strength is in the half priced granaries.

That means faster whipping, and whipping is insanely powerful (it's great without a granary, but WITH a granary, it borders on the insane).

That, coupled with a few nice benefits of the health bonus can be combined into a compelling advantage. Consider:

Half priced granary means faster completion of that pivotal build, which in turn, means faster, insanely powerful pop-rushing.

+3 Health means that you can build a city in the middle of those floodplains, which are so tempting, but also carry a health penalty...you can just shrug this off.

Health bonus also means that you can play fast and loose with your forests. Why should you be concerned with the health benefits of the trees...you've got your own, built-in bonus.

Combine all these things, and Expansive allows you to unlock tremendous empire-wide productivity, opening the door to no-penalty clear-cutting, unfettered (and easy) pop-rushing, and silly kinds of money thanks to a (partial) immunity to the negative effects of flood plains.

Gets more powerful as you move up in difficulty level, but even at Prince, it's no slouch.

Re: Creative - Definitely count me as a fan. It's a godsend of a trait, specifically for two reasons:

* Allows for more strategic city placement. Civs without creative MUST research Mysticism if they want their early (2nd-3rd) cities to culturally expand, and then, of course, they must take time to actually build the Obelisk (Monument, in Warlords, as I understand it)....all of that takes time, and during that time, if that juicy gold mine or corn field isn't immediately adjacent to the city you just founded, you're screwed. Not so with a Creative Civ, who can toss down the city for maximum impact, taking the full fat cross into account, and USE it in just a handful of turns, no builds require. That's awesome.

* Second ability is nearly as awesome as the first....it is VERY easy, with the Creative trait to use your culture as a weapon.

People bemoan the fact that there's no ZOC in Civ. Actually, there is...it just expresses itself different in this game. ZOC expresses itself in the form of your cultural borders...close them to a civ, and they can't get through.

If your borders grow fast (Creative), and you are selective about who you have open borders with, you can *easily* marginalize neighboring civs, simply by expanding at a normal pace. Your borders grow, and thanks to your cunning city placement, you bottle up 1-2 of your neighbors, refusing open borders so they can't escape to plant settlers elsewhere, and you can then deal with them at your leisure.

* Third attribute worth mentioning - it's a backfiller's dream...allows you to space your cities out to encompass just stupid amounts of territory, very quickly, so you can go back in and add a number of new cities inside your own borders, long after all the "available land" has been claimed.



-=Vel=-

[DirtyMartini]

A Velociryx sighting!

I agree with everything Vel said -- expansive is for quick granaries and earlier, more extensive clear cutting.

Creative allows best city placement, and shines on crowded maps such as Terra.

Spiritual is nice -- I haven't done a detailed analysis of the turn advantage, I just know when I've got spiritual I make much better use of civics than I otherwise would. Maybe the anarchy would be worth it when not spiritual, but I'm much less inclined to try it. Half price temples or are very nice on higher difficulty as well.

Financial is obviously good and easy to leverage, but I'm not as in love with it as I used to be.

Organized is OK. It's easy/automatic to use and fits well with a sprawling empire. Like expansive, I find the half price courthouses to be the aspect I value most.

Aggressive is OK for pure warmongering not for Combat I, but for the quicker access to higher tier promotions with barracks.

On both vanilla and Warlords, I think expansive and organized is the combo I utilize the best. I've had my best games with Julius (Vanilla) and Mehmed (Warlords). Build granary, whip in lighthouse, whip in courthouse, grow very large buit Mehmed's UB, grow larger. Use huge, fast regenerating population with high cap to whip military -- crush, maim, destroy -- whip in cheap courthouses to stabilize economy. Grow very large, repeat.

Population is power. Exp/Org allows many, large cities.

[Arrian]

I *still* don't use slavery properly. I mean, I use it, sometimes, when I remember...

I do not set things up for it... or rarely do. I did remember in a recent game when the circumstances screamed for it (city with a fish and two land food bonus tiles, with the best production tiles in the entire city radius being 2 grass forests!), but otherwise I tend to just not utilize it.

Oh, and WOW, it's VEL! Good to see you.

-Arrian

[Snotty]

Vel has covered most of my praise for expansive. I like expansive as health is hard to come by in a smaller empire, or a multiplayer game. Monarchy deals with any happiness problems so health is the limiting factor on population growth. Population is the driving force behind tech and production. More happy, healthy population cant be a bad thing!

[Dominae]

There's some nice synergy between Creative and Imperialistic (Catherine), which basically makes REX land-denial a viable option all the way up to Immortal (although there it's more like a land-parity strategy).

[monkspider]

I agree with Vel re: expansive and would add that it also shines in the late game after assembly line and biology where the demand for healh rises dramatically and there aren't many good options to increase it. It is not a very sexy trait on paper, but in practice it gives you tremendous flexibilty.

And there is no doubt that creative, if properly leveraged, can be a dagger in the heart of an opponent.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Arrian
Lots of people like Creative. I'm not one of them.

I, like many others, think Expansionist is kinda crap. It's better than it used to be (now +3 health instead of +2). It could be that it really shines on higher levels of play (because of more unhealthiness on those levels). In general, I prefer just about any other trait (other than CRE).

-Arrian

EXP and CRE are both pretty lame, IMO. Stonehenge renders CRE moot, and it's not hard to get up a culture building anyway (or a religion). Health... meh. As you said, probably more useful on higher levels.

There's really no way to replace most of the other traits' bonuses, particularly FIN or PHI.

An EXP Inca would be pretty nifty though.