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Biggest strategy changes due to Warlords

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  • #16
    I definitely agree about the downgrading of Barbs with the much-improved chariot but don’t think this would influence too much the decision for Bronze-Working unless going for a slingshot. Even then the whip option for Bronze-Working still makes it a valuable tech.

    Do Trebs really improve city attack capabilities? They break the defenses more but my confusion with the combat stats make me unsure of the relative merits of Swords vs Trebs.

    Sword CR III = 6 + 10% + 75% = 11.1
    Treb CR III = 4 + 100% + 75% = 11.0

    I can see the lack of an “anti-Treb” unit makes them quite powerful and the collateral damage will also add to their merits. But Engineering is really on the level with Civil Service so the comparable unit is the Macemen CR III who attacks at 14.0. And CS also comes with irrigation and bureaucracy while Engineering adds the road bonus.

    I still think Engineering is put up the tech queue but wonder if it is being overplayed a little.

    The new traits make for interesting new styles of play and all of them have a military edge to them. Warlords are perhaps not such a big bonus unless you get one or two of them early so perhaps the Imperialist trait can only benefit the early game. Likewise, I think Protective only really helps with the early game while I remain unconvinced about Charismatic – having never really worried about promotions above 3 or 4 because they never seemed to add much to the game.

    That said, the promotion changes makes for some interesting high level promotions and drill has definitely been given a bit more potential than it had in vanilla.

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    • #17
      Siege units are now immune to collateral damage. This point is especially important in the era of artilleries where a few of them can render huge stacks of tanks and infantries ineffective. The tanks now play the role of artillery escorts and killers of enemy artilleries.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by couerdelion
        Do Trebs really improve city attack capabilities? They break the defenses more but my confusion with the combat stats make me unsure of the relative merits of Swords vs Trebs.

        Sword CR III = 6 + 10% + 75% = 11.1
        Treb CR III = 4 + 100% + 75% = 11.0

        I can see the lack of an �anti-Treb� unit makes them quite powerful and the collateral damage will also add to their merits. But Engineering is really on the level with Civil Service so the comparable unit is the Macemen CR III who attacks at 14.0. And CS also comes with irrigation and bureaucracy while Engineering adds the road bonus.
        You can't compare a siege unit to a non-siege unit - that's like with apples and orranges...

        The very point of why trebs are useful are the same reasons why the catapults are useful (even if they are weaker than swordsmen!): that they 1) are capable of bringing down city defences, 2) have a retreat chance from a loosing battle, and most of all 3) cause collateral damage when attacking - for a siege unit, actual power in a fight is secondary. That said, with the strength of the Treb unit compared to the catapult, having trebs instead of catapults in your city conquering stacks will make them much more effective, since they tend to survive their battles much more often, and thus your attacing force can go on longer without needing re-enforcement siege units. As an added bonus, trebs actually often win their fights, and don't have to put all their hope on the retreat chance.

        At least for me, with Warlords, Engineering has become a priority.
        Only the most intelligent, handsome/beautiful denizens of apolyton may join the game :)

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        • #19
          Especially in the Rise of Rome campaign, trebs get 100% vs. cities .

          (I haven't checked, but they might get this bonus in the regular game as well, if so, sorry.)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Prussia
            Especially in the Rise of Rome campaign, trebs get 100% vs. cities .

            (I haven't checked, but they might get this bonus in the regular game as well, if so, sorry.)
            Yes, they DO get it in the regular game as well. As has been declared (and by some, criticized) in many a thread. There must be something to compensate for its being a less powerful cousin to the earlier catapult.

            Unless you start from the beginning and read almost everything, it can be SO difficult to keep current.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MightyTiny


              You can't compare a siege unit to a non-siege unit - that's like with apples and orranges...

              The very point of why trebs are useful are the same reasons why the catapults are useful (even if they are weaker than swordsmen!): that they 1) are capable of bringing down city defences ...
              And Trebs lower the City Defenses by 25 % with every shot.
              That´s the same value as Artillery has and more than every other siege unit (including cannons).
              Therefore, with just 4 Trebs you can lower the city defenses to 0% in one turn.
              Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
              Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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              • #22
                Originally posted by One_more_turn
                The tanks now play the role of artillery escorts and killers of enemy artilleries.
                That is quite historically correct as well. Tanks were invented in WWI to take out artillery positions because infantry would get shot down too easily to reliably take out enemy artillery without unacceptably high losses. Maybe Artillery should get Pinch and Tanks should get Charge to reflect this?
                Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.

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                • #23
                  I find warlords gives a lot more direction to my mid game than before.

                  The University of Sankore means I am more inclined to spend time on building an early religion and rushing for both Paper and Divine right (usually with the aid of great people) to eventually get the twin whammy of a nice science city with Sankore/Shrine/Academy/Oxford and a nice great merchant spec city with Minaret/Wall Street. Yum.

                  Trebuchet means I am more inclined to also rush for engineering, while I have a military build up (Elephants/Praetorians/Macemen) then when expanding fast through conquest, I build the hagia sophia to take full advantage of the worker bonus on my new territories.
                  Last edited by Thrak; August 23, 2006, 08:15.

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                  • #24
                    I used to panic when foregn troops invaded my territory. My military efforts concentrated on keeping the battles outside my borders to avoid pillaging, etc. Now, I let many of those invaders "sneak" past my guards. "Aha! A chance for double Great General points!"
                    If you aren't confused,
                    You don't understand.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Commander Bello

                      Except for the fact that the recommendations for you where to build a city are based on ressource locations (even of hidden ressources).
                      No. They aren't.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jaybe

                        Yes, they DO get it in the regular game as well. As has been declared (and by some, criticized) in many a thread. There must be something to compensate for its being a less powerful cousin to the earlier catapult.

                        Unless you start from the beginning and read almost everything, it can be SO difficult to keep current.
                        Having fun with font styles and caps lock?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Prussia
                          Having fun with font styles and caps lock?
                          Absolutely! Stylizing words is what is used (or NOT) to make one's meaning clear with emphasis in writing. Since we aren't speaking verbally to each other, its use can prevent misunderstandings.

                          Not that many people use it much in the forums, of course. But, since I don't post that much, I prefer to take the time to make what I DO post clear (within my capabilities).

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One_more_turn
                            Siege units are now immune to collateral damage. This point is especially important in the era of artilleries where a few of them can render huge stacks of tanks and infantries ineffective. The tanks now play the role of artillery escorts and killers of enemy artilleries.
                            Also, the worth of machine guns has gone up with them being immune to collateral damage. In a recent game Mao went heavy on the MGs and it really slowed down my destruction of his cities.
                            - Dregor

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Jaybe

                              Absolutely! Stylizing words is what is used (or NOT) to make one's meaning clear with emphasis in writing. Since we aren't speaking verbally to each other, its use can prevent misunderstandings.

                              Not that many people use it much in the forums, of course. But, since I don't post that much, I prefer to take the time to make what I DO post clear (within my capabilities).
                              In the post quoted by Prussia, without the stylistic tricks anybody would have still emphasized those same words in reading it - there's really no alternative interpretation. By drawing even more atttention to what words would be emphasized in normal speech, this gives the reader the sense that these words would be even more heavily emphasized than normal, which makes the post read as overly dramatic and somewhat flamboyant.

                              "In the post quoted by Prussia, without the stylistic tricks ANYBODY would have still emphasized those same words in reading it - there's really no alternative interpretation. By drawing EVEN MORE atttention to what words would be emphasized in normal speech, this gives the reader the sense that THESE words would be EVEN MORE heavily emphasized than normal, which makes the post read as overly dramatic and somewhat flamboyant."

                              See the difference? Hardly seems worth the time it takes to code it, and doesn't enhance or clarify my position in any appreciable way.

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                              • #30
                                No more Cosacks. Those 18 points really kicked everyone's ass in vanilla and could conqueror several civs before they knew what was happening. Combined with Katherina's creative trait to get them up working in no time and the financial trait to keep being able to pay the maintance costs you civ could easily grow to about 4-5 times its own size without encountering any meaning resitance even without siege weapons.

                                Redcoats have also lost their power even though they were never as powerful as the Cosacks.

                                At least the glory of the Romains remain, somewhat. The Preatorians have become more expensive.


                                I haven't played Ragar yet but his Beserker unit looks good. Those 10% vs cities plus the Combat 1 you get Ragar's traits look good. Just like a free additional City Raider IV

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