Civil Wars

[Jvstin]

A couple of the games in the same phylum as Civilization have Civil Wars, of sorts...

Europa Universalis has the possibility that if certain regions are in revolt, then a new country (from a pre defined list) can form out of the revolt. For example, if the right provinces of France revolt, the nation of Burgundy can emerge.

Advanced Civilization (the AH boardgame) had a card/event where a Civil War could result, randomly. It was a high level, crippling event.

I'm not sure they could be modeled well in the Civilization framework, though.

[Blaupanzer]

Random thoughts on the inputs above.

Most of the discussion seems to relate to revolution. Revolutions are sometimes precipitated by unhappy citizens. Whether the resulting conflict between the previous government and the revolters is a civil war depends on the virulence of the revolt and the loyalty of the military to the previous regime.

Civil wars between regions of a state may also break out depending on the power of the central government and the virulance of the regional grievances.

Civ IV can model the revolution paradigm. Revolt breaks out anytime the total unhappiness is some percentage greater than the total population of a city independent of the happiness elements. OR a certain percentage of red citizens compared to the total equals revolt. OR distance from capitol plus these other factors starts the process.

Effects of the revolt could range from production shutdown or immediate civics change thru precipitating a new civ, reviving a dead civ, or joining another civ at random. Perhaps these resolutions would depend on the number of cities and the amount of time involved. I like the idea that certain civics would exascerbate the problems (e.g., slavery or nationalism) while others would help (e.g., universal suffrage or emancipation).

[Mattimus20]

I think Blaupanzer hit it right on the head. All this talk seems to be referring to Revolutionary wars, not Civil Wars.

I like the idea of a revolutionary war. If you have a large empire with, say, 3/4 of your cities on a big island, and the others on a smaller island... the smaller island should have the option to break away if you're not doing anything to make them happy (Based on Culture, Civics or taxes). There will be nothing you can do except attempt to fight back with the limited remaining military presence you have there, or bring over reinforcements. (Similar to the U.S.-England Revolutionary War)

Historically, Civil wars have been extremely varied in their meaning. The American civil war was the fight for slavery. The south wanted it, the North didn't. There have been religious civil wars and civil wars based on people who are just plain pissed off.

I think if a city revolts (On same continent as capitol), Military Units should pop-up in the city (Militia with a strength based on their level of unhappiness) and they should be able to temporarily take over the city. Then you must fight to take back the city. I like everyone else's suggestions as well, where if one city revolts, many will follow.

[Will9]

I often use revolution and civil war interchangably. Revolution would be the best word to describe what I started this thread about.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Will9
I often use revolution and civil war interchangably.

I hope you didn't do that in history class... "The American Civil War ended in 1865"

[jbp26]

does anyone else remembers schisms from Civ I? if a large civilization had a certain amount of dissent in a number of their cities, and you took their capitol, there was a chance that half of the cities would break away and form a new civ. it was a really interesting way to combat a civ that was much bigger than you. not to say i would advocate this in Civ IV, because obviously Civ I had a lot of questionable design decisions. I remember playing world maps and starting in Europe, and then wiping out 2 or 3 other civs by moving my settler into their undefended capitol.

[MasterDave]

Civil wars could be cool, but I would want a game option to disable them. If I were playing in a competitive multiplayer game, and suddenly half of my civ rebels and I am screwed, I would not be a happy camper. It might be ok in a single player game, however.

[Dis]

Originally posted by jbp26
does anyone else remembers schisms from Civ I? if a large civilization had a certain amount of dissent in a number of their cities, and you took their capitol, there was a chance that half of the cities would break away and form a new civ. it was a really interesting way to combat a civ that was much bigger than you. not to say i would advocate this in Civ IV, because obviously Civ I had a lot of questionable design decisions. I remember playing world maps and starting in Europe, and then wiping out 2 or 3 other civs by moving my settler into their undefended capitol.

Schism was in civ2 as well. Worked great when battling large empires. I split one in half, made peace with one and continued to battle the other.

[Dis]

as for civil and revolutionary wars, I'm not sure if you could reasonably implement them.

And if we had revolutionary wars we could take the americans out of the game and not hear any more *****ing about them. . Because they would be a civ that would pop up when a civ like England has a revolutionary war. This would require in some cases (not in America's case) creating new civs and animated leaderheads for the revolutionary civs. Then we could include Mexico etc. That's a lot of work for not much reward.

Revolutionary type wars seem to be associated with colonies. And this would have to be implemented in the game. How would you do this. You could say it is any overseas city. But if you look at the case with America, Hawaii isn't likely to declare independence any time soon. Even puerto rico doesn't seem to want complete independence.

Civil wars would be cities within your own continent break off into another nation. This would be a little easier to implement I think. What would trigger this. Unhappiness and cities with a different religion than other cities in a nation. Say you had 4 cities all with one type of religion different from the capitol and other cities. And they all had unhappiness for say at least 5 turns. Then they'd be a chance they could break off. This might be kind of cool now I think of it. A strategy for a player would be to plant religions in a civ's cities and hope they break off.

Then the player would have the option of using their remaining military troops to try to reconquer the rebelling cities, or let them go. Perhaps there could be a diplomatic means as well. As I mentioned before, the difficulty is coming up with more civs, traits for them, and animated leaderheads.

I like the religion idea, even though the U.S. had a civil war and it wasn't about religion. This is where it becomes complicated. How do you institute regional differences within a civ?

[Will9]

Revolutionary type wars seem to be associated with colonies. And this would have to be implemented in the game. How would you do this. You could say it is any overseas city.

The French Revolution. It was not a revolt it was revolution.

[AmericanCitizen]

As long as it's optional, all of the things described here are fine.

[Cyrus The Mike]

I'v allways kind of wanted that. but not the way you discribed.mine would be like this.

1.a revolt can happen if your city is not on the mainland or Is very far away from your capital. Your city has at least 2 mad people. also your capital cannot revolt.

2. After a revolt a random name appears as their leader (random meaning John Smith, or Timothy Richard. Not one of the registerd leaders, like Cyrus or Tokugawa.)
also you don't really show a face. just an outline of a man who is in the dark.

3.If you have 5 (maybe 7 or 10) or more units in a city a revolt cannot happen.

4.A jail decreaces the chance for revolt. No revolts with police state.

that might be it. and althoe it will never be a part of a game, its fun to speak my mind.

Cyrus.

[Cyrus The Mike]

Sorry there is more.(just thought of this )

5.Different state religeons in said city increaces the chance.

6.revolting citys can build your special units.(they were part of your civ after all)

7.slavory Increases chances of revolt.

8.cirtain wonders stop the chance of a revolt. such as forbin palace, Vircails, or the Kremilin.

ok that should be it.thanks for listening.

Cyrus

P.S My first post I didn't read the whole thread.
(and I can't spell very good)

[Gatekeeper]

I enjoyed Civ II's model of civil war — if you take the capital of a gigantic empire, you might stand a chance of splitting it.

One thing I'd change, though, is to limit the splits. Why? Because it got ridiculous when you could land with a hundred offensive divisions (yes, I did that) and split an empire to the point where the original civilization vanished, only to be replaced by four to six (or more) squabbling little nations. You would think that, at some point, the people of your original enemy would realize that, hey, we'd better stick together or this son-of-a-gun is gonna get us all.

Gatekeeper