Who do you is better: Mansa or Shaka?

[couerdelion]

Well I think it's time for me to compare them by playing two games and seeing where I get with them. Both will be Epic speed/Monarch level and I'll probably look at how soon I can get to the following

1) Build Forbidden Palace
2) Reach 10,20 and 30 cities
3) Reach Liberalism
4) Circumnavigate the globe.

I those are factors that are reasonably fair comparisons.

I suspect that Shaka's big strength is his very cheap Ikhanda and I wonder if this might allow him to run low cost large empires earlier in the game. His traits aren't too great particularly if you don't get Copper - which in my game I did not.

I'll probably regenerate the map when I play Mansa to make sure that I have comparable starts. With Shaka I got 3 Flood Plains, Plains Hills Gold, Plains Cattle and Plains Ivory (a very tasty assortment to start with given that the two luxury resources allow early cities to grow very large. There's a potential CS Slingshot here although I'm running a little late down the CoL path having detoured to Bronze Working, Archer and Animal Husbandry.

Neighbours are quite reasonable - Qin, Hannibal and Tokugawa so there's plenty of scope here for using the Aggressive trait.

[Velociryx]

Hey Nubian...one thing I can't figure...if your mind was already made up....if your plan was to berate people who disagree with your position that the Mighty Zulu tower over poor Mansa and make him tremble in fear, then why did you phrase this thread's title as a question?

Did you think that no one would find Mansa to be superior (in which case, why ask the question at all?)?

People disagree with your assessment. They've given solid reasons for that disagreement. You can choose to write them all off with a wave of your hand (as you have so far), or you can choose to accept that maybe those who disagree are seeing something you're not.

All the Civs are viable. All of them.

In certain circumstances, all of them shine.

In Shaka's case, he shines when you're playing a constricted map, surrounded by lots of victims...er...I mean Civs.

If you're trapped and alone on an island, you're not going to have much fun with Shaka, because he's pretty torqued up for war.

Mansa is more robust, and has an easier time pursuing a wider range of strategies, which, IMO, makes him more popular on the whole.

I'm sorry you disagree, but I promise that this will not keep me from calling it like I see it.

-=Vel=-

[Nubianmercenary]

: Lol.... And when I thought this thread couldnt get any better.

It appers that most people prefer Mansa over Shaka, and what Shaka has to offer is only constricted to a map in which you are "trapped". Well that is basically wrong, simply because I have played an islands map as the mighty Zulu, and not only did I conquer 4/6 civs, One of them being the Vikings (Who are suppose to be very "difficult" to beat on an islands map due to thier Bonuses for seafearing and such) but I 'Colonized" so much territory that I eventually one a domination victory.
:
:
:The point is people, Shaka was designed for warmongerers, that at least is clear. But it eventually comes down to the player himself to 'Adapt' to the map they are on, I mean come one, who of thought The Zulu could win on an islands map? I think you should think about what you are typing "Vel", before you yourself and others begin to think for a second that Shaka is any lower than Mansa of the Malineese.




NubianMercenary

[Velociryx]

And you sir, are quite entitled to your opinions.

I never said that it would be impossible for the Zulu to win the game if trapped on an island, but admittedly, given their traits and the earliness of their UU, being in such a situation does not play to their strengths.

Your reactions thus far to those who have disagreed with you, however, strongly suggest that you have no real interest in dissenting opinions, and that's fine too....just don't be overly surprised when folks call you on it.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Oh, and two other comments while I'm thinking about it.

1) re: the adaptation comment...please don't delude yourself into thinking that the adaptation comment is somehow applicable only to the Mighty Zulu....I can promise you that this is not the case, and

2) "Vel" didn't say anything about the Mighty Zulu being lower than the Malinese (nor was it an implied thought), but please....go quote me as saying that. I DID say they were different, and that the Zulu were more narrowly focused, but then...that's not the same thing, is it?



-=Vel=-

(of course, I also said they were all good, and that they all shined, but we can't mention that, since it directly contradicts what you claimed I said/thought, and we know how you react when people disagree....)

[Calvin Vu]

You have quite a good bit of patience, Vel. Myself, I would have boiled a barrel full of sarcasm and splashed the whole planet with it.

[JackRudd]

If I weren't on snail-up, I'd be challenging the Nubian Mercenary to a game round about now. Mansa v Shaka, any (reasonable) settings. Anyone else want to do this?

[Nubianmercenary]

: If anyone wants to challenge me, well then bring it on. My Civ 3, Civ4 and Civ4 Warlords Name is "Zuludawn". If anyone thinks they can beat me using Mansa against me as the MIGHTY Zulu nation, then by all means name the time and name the Place and I will be there!





NubianMercenary

[Krill]

*Sigh*

Do you know what happened to the last guy to challenge the forum to a duel?

[JackRudd]

Originally posted by Krill
*Sigh*

Do you know what happened to the last guy to challenge the forum to a duel?

That was our dear old friend StarLightDeath, wasn't it? He faced off against you and managed to make a Fin/Ind leader incompetent at Wonder Building and Teching, if i remember correctly.

[couerdelion]

Well my game with Shaka is rolling forward at a pace that even the mighty Mansa would struggle to match. For the record, the Zulu UU is absolute pants. I wouldn’t build a single one of them.

OK, granted, I was poorly placed for Copper and Iron. When I finally grab iron with City No 7, I’ll then start building Swords and Axes to give my chariots a little rest.

What Shaka does seem to look good for is the fast development of fledgling cities and perhaps also the ability to keep city maintenance costs down better than Organised – at least that is my guess. Once you have pottery, the Granary and Ikhanda can be built in no time at all.

As for the Mansa/Shaka duel, I think this would be too easy for Mansa.

Mansa goes Bronzeworking while looking for Shaka (killing any scouts he finds)
On finding Shaka, check for Copper while researching Hunting and Archery.
Build skirmishers to sit on any copper/horses controlled by Shaka.
Brief war to stifle development of Zululand while developing own civ

As long as skirmishers can get to Zululand before copper is developed (Shaka needs Bronzeworking, Wheel, a worker, some defenders and time to build the mine/link roads), Shaka can do nothing but fend off inevitable defeat

[Nubianmercenary]

: Does it look like I care what happened to the last guy??? You wanted a challenge not me, so bring it.




NubianMercenary

[Krill]

Originally posted by Nubianmercenary
: Does it look like I care what happened to the last guy??? You wanted a challenge not me, so bring it.




NubianMercenary

Unlike you, I have not challenged anyone in this thread; I don't see the point. If any of my learned friends want to play you and show you why Mansa is better than Shaka, so be it; they won't be wasting my time.

You could win a duel, you could lose a duel. It is both dependant not only on the civs involved but the players, and the map. Play a beautiful map where Mansa has bronze and horses in cap and Shaka has nothing? Mansa should win, or the player that is playing him is a ******, to be blunt. and Vice versa; Shaka with copper is in a very good position if he has some good food res and production potential.

Play a team game, 5 Mansa v 5 Shaka, TBG, low sea level, standard map. Who would win? Who, frankly, cares.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Nubianmercenary
: Does it look like I care what happened to the last guy??? You wanted a challenge not me, so bring it.




NubianMercenary

I guess it's the AGG trait that you think is so appealing in Shaka.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by couerdelion


I guess it's the AGG trait that you think is so appealing in Shaka.

Hey - methinks not!!