Who do you is better: Mansa or Shaka?

[joncnunn]

Neither Egypt nor Carthage is considered an African civ by historians because Africa north of the Sahara had a lot more reliable trade connections with Europe, the Middle East, and even India than with Africa south of the Sahara.

Carthage in fact was originally a Phoenican colony, that at its peaked controlled what's now SE Spain and Italian islands. Egypt at it's peak controlled what's now Israel, Lebanon, and parts of Syria.

Russia tends to be regarded as a European civ and not an Asian civ. Europe's offical boundary with Asia in that part of the world is the Ural Mountains and it's quite clear that the population centered around Kiev and Moscow expanded eastwards to evenually reach the Pacific. (Russia also at one time also claimed Alaska, but probably didn't control much other than the coast and a few coastal trade outposts.)

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Qwertqwert
Mansa Musa has my favorite UU, 33% more strength and an additional first strike is great for early takeovers. If only he had Aggressive instead of Spiratual he'd be the best leader IMO. And his UU can be built very early, doesn't have to wait anywhere near as long as Mongolia.

I haven't used Mansa much, but I have trouble putting his UU to good use. Offensively, by the timeI have enough skirmishers built to go on the offensive, the AI has 2 archers, fortified, with at least 20% cultural defense in their cities. I'd rather just skip archery, hook up some copper, and build axemen.

Is there something I'm missing that makes a skirmisher rush work?

[Quillan]

I don't use skirmishers as offensive units except as a last resort. I'd rather attack with axemen, horse archers, chariots or swordsmen while the skirmishers protect the attacking units.

[AshenPlanet]

.

Neither Egypt nor Carthage is considered an African civ by historians...

Those are the same "historians" that believe in intelligent design...

Egypt is a more African civ than Mali.
The Egyptian civilization started on the Nile river valley.
Hatshepsut and Egypt followed an intrinsic African religion.
The Egyptian people, their religion, and their society were forged in Africa.
The region of Mali was conquered by foreign slavers who were Mansa Musa's forebears.
They followed a non-African religion brought by a non-African society.

After marrying and killing her brother, the pharoah, Hatshepsut became Pharoah.
She increased trade and built many African temples, buildings, and monuments.
She brought Egypt from the depression of the second intermediate period into a golden age of prosperity.
After a long period of decline, she put Africa back on the map.

Mansa Musa, on the other hand, brought ruin to the Mali empire.
Pre-Musa Mali Kings had their enslaved people strip so much gold from thier land, that some wrote that 1/2 the gold being mined in the world was coming from Mali.
Mansa Musa brought the world's richest police state (even wealthier than Greece or India) to it's knees, leaving it in debt when he left this world.
He spent most of Africa's gold on foreign temples, European slave girls, Asian cloths and luxuries, and trips to foreign lands.
On the backs of African slaves, he carried 180 tons of gold out of Africa on 1 trip to middle-eastern Asia.
Being the first deficit spender is probably what earned him the financial trait, given to him because he was the worst financial leader of all time.
The richest regime in the world built by his forebears became the poorest in his short 25 year rule.

As historical rulers go, I'd take Hatshepsut, who is far more African, over Musa any day.
In the game, I think all the civs are balanced well, but war chariots are really nice.

.

[padillah]

Grind axes much?

Tom P.

[Will9]

Please tell me what makes Egypt similar to other civs in Africa (Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Mali, Zulu)? Probalby the only other civ in Africa that you can find similarites to Egypt is Nubia (which is a mix of Nile and African cultuers while Egypt began mostly as a Nile culture, but slowly became more Eastern Mediterranean and later Greco-Roman and even later Middle Eastern).

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


I haven't used Mansa much, but I have trouble putting his UU to good use. Offensively, by the timeI have enough skirmishers built to go on the offensive, the AI has 2 archers, fortified, with at least 20% cultural defense in their cities. I'd rather just skip archery, hook up some copper, and build axemen.

Is there something I'm missing that makes a skirmisher rush work?

If you go straight for Archery and then build only Skirskimmers, then take over cities as soon as you get 4, heal and go for another. And keep making skirskishmers in all your cities as soon as you take over (don't build barracks first except in your main city). If you can do it quickly enough it'll work. But you have to focus soley on this from the begining. But when it's your Skirskimmer v warriors, your guys dominate completly.

[rah]

You must be playing at the lower levels, at the higher ones the AI starts with archers.

[AshenPlanet]

.

Please tell me what makes Egypt similar to other civs in Africa (Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Mali, Zulu)? Probalby the only other civ in Africa that you can find similarites to Egypt is Nubia (which is a mix of Nile and African cultuers while Egypt began mostly as a Nile culture, but slowly became more Eastern Mediterranean and later Greco-Roman and even later Middle Eastern).

Zulu was, of course, an African society, up until they conquered by the british.

Egyptian civilization was also 100% African until 343BC when they were destroyed by the Persians.
The land of egypt was then ruled by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and the Persians again.
It is today still run by the Arab society that was brought by those who conquered it so long ago.
Hatshepsut, Ozymondias, Horus Scorpion, Tutunkamen, etc. were all rulers of the African Egyptian empire before it ceased to exist in 343BC.

In that time period, Arabs also conquered all the northern African lands all the way to the Atlantic ocean including those where the Mali empire later sprung up.
The Mande and the Soninke who were the tribal indiginous population who were conquered by these Arabs.
The Mali empire, forged by Musa's predecessors, and run into the ground by Musa himself, was a middle eastern society very much unlike the tribal African civilizations that existed before them and very much unlike Egypt and Zulu.

Egypt before the Persians and Zulu before the british were true African civilizations with African people, African culture, African religion, and African society.
The Mali empire does not fall into the same category as Egypt and Zulu.

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[monkspider]

Most scientists and anthropologists and what have you consider North Africa to be part of Eurasia, FWIW.

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by rah
You must be playing at the lower levels, at the higher ones the AI starts with archers.

At noble... At prince I havn't tried it.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by rah
You must be playing at the lower levels, at the higher ones the AI starts with archers.

I play monarch, thus the original confusion -- skirmisher vs archer in city with 20% cultural defense by the time you get there = bad. A purely defensive UU isn't my idea of fun, which is disappointing since I really like Mansa's traits and starting tech. Spiritual without having to start with Mysticism is great -- mysticism is a wasted starting tech above Prince IMHO.

[motina]

Zulu would be the true African Civ. The Mali would be Islamic Arabian, Carthage is Phoenician, and Egypt is Neolithic Semitic, then influenced by Sumer (Through Semites, as Sumerians are not Semitic) and then the Asian Hyksos (where the chariot came from), and as it weakened, Nubian, Persian, Greek, Roman, and then Arabian. Mind you that Semitic people are originally from Arabia, so if anything Egyptians are more Arabian, or ME than African.

A little dated..

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17321

[Nubianmercenary]

: The fact remains, Carthage is in africa, so is eygpt. Not in Phonecia or in the middle east, AFRICA is AFRICA and MIDDLE-EAST is MIDDLE-EAST.




NubianMercenary

[Will9]

I have forgoten about this thread. The thing is that their is no one African culture so no civ or tribe can be considered African.