Raging Barbarians

[couerdelion]

I spend little on external units and nothing if I need them to defend cities and resources. It's rare that I would have more than three units posted outside my cities to clear fog and I often only do this early in the game or in games when I don't have metal resources.

Of course, the chariot bonus against Axeman is a big plus in Warlords as are all the new traits.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Blake
If you want to see a great example of extreme barbarian management check the link in my sig - the game "Epic 4 - Rome vs. the Barbarians"

Very entertaining report!

[Arrian]

Yes, yes it was. Then I read his other reports, which were also good fun.

Blake, do you have nightmares about barbarian galleys?

-Arrian

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Blake

edit: If you want to see a great example of extreme barbarian management check the link in my sig - the game "Epic 4 - Rome vs. the Barbarians" was a game on Deity Level with Raging Barbarians, Rome was given a fair bit more space than the AI's - enough to basically out-expand the AI's, at least until they get Astronomy (not long, given they're Deity). This is really a good example as any of how more space means more barbarians, but that space can then be leveraged into a stronger economy, despite the barbarian pressure.

I'm having a look through this now and there's something I don't get.

At one point, year 1025 AD, you're researcing Code of Laws and there are 80 turns left on it.

But then in year 1160 AD, you've completed CoL and are researching mathematics.

Is that right? I don't have a game open in front of me but are there 80 turns between 1025 AD and 1160 AD on epic?

[Generaldoktor]

Oh and I thought I was a barb afficiando. A whole thread full of either b-tchers or guys saying "bring 'em on," and I didn't jump in. Well, better late than never!

There's only a couple things I have to add over what's been said, such as that barbs are smarter since "Warlords," (and maybe since v.161.) They will frequently bypass fortified hills and head for juicy targets in the cultural boundaries now. Build on those hills anyway, it does, as stated, reduce fog of war that benefits barbs and if you catch them on open ground; you can often get away with attacking them. (Some guys clear immediately around their cities for this, with early chops. I don't take it that far usually, I like to save the trees for big buildings, but its an idea and such things may be needed on higher difficulties than I play. {Raging Barbs on Deity, think of that! } )

Two axe and an archer for defense is what I'm using. One axe and the archer defend while the other axe heals. If I see barb horsemen (see below,) I might try to scrounge a spear for the hunter-killer groups too.

Chariots sound peachy, especially now that they are the bane of axemen, BUT you have to keep your horses and with barbs, a lot of early improvements suffer, especially on "raging." If you lose the pasture, forget the chariots, unless you built a lot way early. Some desparate people actually drop cities on top of horses or iron, to make sure they keep the production. I dislike this as you lose a lot of hammers later in the game by not developing the square, even if you are guaranteed the resource. Given a choice between defending the corral or the copper/iron pit; I'll take the metal. (I have never seen barb chariots, but they do switch to horse archers frequently, probably when they build a barb city by a horse resource themselves. With iron, you can build spearmen too.) Sometimes you do have to choose.

Somebody suggested concentric rings radiating outward as you get more troop production. This works for me as you can't create an anti-barb army with offensive ability against their new infiltrations, overnight; and you only get so much time, initially, before at least their archers pop out. Each trooper guy of yours, or group created, pushes the perimeter a little farther out. While researching metals, which is pretty critical early in a barb game btw, archers on hills will do, with at least two also per city. (Cities on hills are helpful, you seldom have time for walls, at least till later.) I like to keep the number of workers low until the defense perimeter is looking good; you do suffer retarded growth this way, but my scouting/research suggests the AI suffer pretty equally. It's a slower game, but that's the joy of barbs.

Super-advantagous placement can mitigate, as with other things. Peninsula or island is one way, even on "raging," but sometimes the idiot AI just build around you in such a way that they take the brunt of a lot of the barb assault coming from the "fogged-in" regions. You couldn't ask for more. My experience though is that some always break through, so be ready. Rumors from early in this game's life that barbs ignore AI and beeline for the human player I just don't find to be true. I've seen AI civs smashed early by "raging" barbs, particularly on Highlands or other maps (Lakes, Pangea, somebody said Great Plains, etc., ) that encourage their growth.

Oh, one last note, barbs and pillage. They won't always suicide on cities anymore if they don't see a good chance of success. If they do take your city, it seems they raze them more often now, in games allowing that. Smart barbs.

[Welnic]

Originally posted by NFIH


I'm having a look through this now and there's something I don't get.

At one point, year 1025 AD, you're researcing Code of Laws and there are 80 turns left on it.

But then in year 1160 AD, you've completed CoL and are researching mathematics.

Is that right? I don't have a game open in front of me but are there 80 turns between 1025 AD and 1160 AD on epic?

When it was saying 80 turns the science slider was set to 0%. It would take less turns with some science actually going on.

[khumak]

Originally posted by Blake
edit: If you want to see a great example of extreme barbarian management check the link in my sig - the game "Epic 4 - Rome vs. the Barbarians" was a game on Deity Level with Raging Barbarians, Rome was given a fair bit more space than the AI's - enough to basically out-expand the AI's, at least until they get Astronomy (not long, given they're Deity). This is really a good example as any of how more space means more barbarians, but that space can then be leveraged into a stronger economy, despite the barbarian pressure.

Wow that is one seriously brutal game. Very entertaining read. Can you survive like that on Deity if you have AI players that start off on your continent though? My biggest problem the higher I go in difficulty is that the AI grabs up all available land almost immediately so I basically have until a little while after the barbs start rolling in to expand and then it's build up and/or conquer because there's no room for peaceful expansion anymore.

[Arrian]

Hilarious barb craziness in my latest game. Standard everything, continents, prince level, raging barbs.

I'm exploring the far end of my continent, and I see (expanded) barbarian borders. This is early, before I've seen any other barb towns. Naturally, I'm intrigued.

Delhi, size 4, Buddist, Hindu and Jewish holy city... Barbarian.

It was an absolute monster city site (tons of floodplains, pigs, gold hill), at least if you got some health resources hooked up. Despite an AI civ being between me and Delhi, I was eventually able to capture it (2nd attempt - a quick hit with 3 skirmishers just barely failed). It's a great city, eventually the location of my forbidden palace (after capturing 2 normal barb towns in the vicinity, it was a good spot for that). Due to the religions founded in Delhi and my own research, I control all seven religions.

Then, later in the game, I'm exploring with caravels and I discover the other continent. The first borders I see are black. Cuzco, size 3, barbarian. The Inca, however, were still alive, and managed to re-take Cuzco eventually.

For those who think that barbs unfairly target humans, I can attest that's just not true. The AI takes its lumps too. Mostly it results in pillaged AI lands. But occasionally wacky things happen.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

THAT sounds like a good game!

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Wow, I just can across any even crazier example in my current game.

I'm exploring with caravels and I meet the English. Their score was in the 400s. I knew something wasn't right, but I figured the English got beat down by an AI neighbor.

Then I saw black borders. The borders were largely landlocked, though, so I couldn't tell what lay behind them. I loaded up a couple of galleons and send over some troops.

The Barbs had London (buddist holy city), York and a third city as well, the name of which escapes me. The barb borders (thanks to London being a holy city) were contiguous. It was a little barb empire in what had been the core of the English empire! Now it's mine, of course.

I saved the game when I first saw London through the fog. I think I'll reload and get a good screenshot of the Barbarian State (Camelot? ).

I played raging barbs before Warlords came out, and I never saw anything like this. I've now had 3 or 4 Warlords games where civs were wiped out or lost key cities to the barbs.

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

Arrian, the same can happen even without having raging set if the AI civs have no combat advantages vs. barbs (normally 40% at all difficulties).

[Krill]

Ouch, Arrian, that aws uncalled for...

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Arrian, the same can happen even without having raging set if the AI civs have no combat advantages vs. barbs (normally 40% at all difficulties).

Well yeah, obviously. The AI was programmed, however, with that 40% bonus in mind. To remove it, I suspect, is like taking away a crutch the AI can't really live without.

I'm starting to think that raging barbs may be similar. Which is unfortunate, because I've come to like raging barbs.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Heh.

[Jeje2]

Now I just can't understand what is funny&/cool in a game like Arrain describes? (I hate the barbs - period)