Make me a better player, please.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


That's what I was thinking.

Also.. what of the difficulty level? I thought I read somebody mention 'noble', but IIRC, Padillah was having difficulty winning on Warlord.

Did he jump a difficulty level?

Cut and past the last link in the list and you'll get the game. It's Noble.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Thanks guys, I'll grab it when I get home from work.

So Paddy... taking quite a jump there, aren't you? From not winning at all on Warlord to trying to execute a CS Slingshot and get a domination win on Noble?

Good thing you've got all these guys giving such great advice and input!

[padillah]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
Thanks guys, I'll grab it when I get home from work.

So Paddy... taking quite a jump there, aren't you? From not winning at all on Warlord to trying to execute a CS Slingshot and get a domination win on Noble?

Good thing you've got all these guys giving such great advice and input!

Yeah, a bit of a jump but I've been told (by Blake no less) that "learning" on the lower levels makes bad habbits because the AI acts differently because of the handicaps.

And like I said, my issues are with unit building and war so I figure: let's confront 'em!

These guys are doing a great job of giving advice, being patient, explaining what's going on, etc. I know you're gonna add to that. I've already identified my mistranslation of food = commerce = research.

I've committed to NOT commit to a CS slingshot as long as I get to talk about it.

Tonight I'm gonna try to play early and then late so I get two sets in.

Tom P.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by padillah
Tonight I'm gonna try to play early and then late so I get two sets in.
Tom P.

Enjoy your game! I've had some fun at my neighbour's expense already. 175 AD: 1 down, one to go, then beeline to Liberalism to grab Astro and send some Cossacks to defeat whoever gets in their way.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by padillah


Yeah, a bit of a jump but I've been told (by Blake no less) that "learning" on the lower levels makes bad habbits because the AI acts differently because of the handicaps.

True enough, and I wouldn't be one to argue with Blake. But also be careful to take note that it works both ways above Noble. Some of the advice given is because these players are used to playing on much higher difficulty levels and address problems that won't be encountered on the lower levels.

These guys are doing a great job of giving advice, being patient, explaining what's going on, etc. I know you're gonna add to that. I've already identified my mistranslation of food = commerce = research.

Yeah, well... we'll see. I still believe that food specials already offer a bonus to begin with so while getting the improvement helps.. it doesn't necessarily justify the cost in adjusting your plan. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Of course, since you're playing Catherine and are going to grab techs I normally ignore (horseback riding), and need horses for Cossacks, an AH start might be the way to go in this situation.

Suffice it to say, I don't always believe in immediately getting agriculture to farm wheat or AH for pastures simply because those resources are readily available.

(OTH, a coastal start with seafood specials demands a fishing start because of the growth trade off between workers and fishing boats)

I've committed to NOT commit to a CS slingshot as long as I get to talk about it.

There's no better way to learn than to have a bunch of people all playing the same game, sharing their moves and the reasoning behind them, their mistakes and success!

[SebP]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat

Yeah, well... we'll see. I still believe that food specials already offer a bonus to begin with so while getting the improvement helps.. it doesn't necessarily justify the cost in adjusting your plan. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

This generic argument doesn't apply here though. Sure, if i started on rice and with fishing i would not research agriculture for instance, but would go for wheel then pottery right away. And the first tile to be cottaged would be the 3 food rice. (Farmed rice is only +1 Food)

In this case, we start with hunting and can research agriculture right away. The pasture will not increase the pigs by 1 food, but by 3. From 2:1:0 (which is just a forest) to 5:1:0. I really don't see how any other course could be better. Well, except if, like me, you popped mysticism from a hut on turn 3, but even then...

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by SebP


This generic argument doesn't apply here though.

Yes, and you did a good job in your previous message stating exactly why you were choosing AH as your starting tech. Others, however, I don't think did as well of a job and might leave Pad with the idea he should always spend his opening turns researching a worker-required tech.

I just wanted to point out that there are some times better options.

I really don't see how any other course could be better. Well, except if, like me, you popped mysticism from a hut on turn 3, but even then...

Maybe we'll find out if I ever get out of the office

So Pad didn't actually start his game yet? Is he still planning on going Warrior first? RRS went worker first to make use of AH.

Has that been made clear? That if you're going to go AH with your first tech, your first build needs to be a worker?

..just checking.

[padillah]

@Rancidlunchmeat: I don't know if the worker first was made clear but I saw it easy enough. 10 turns for AH and 12 turns for the first worker. It just looked like it worked out. (see below)

(save file added to initial post)

Civ Log: Catherine.

4000BC:
The spices, elephants, and pigs look good as well as all the grassland and plains. I'll

settle right here. My scout is going for the hut right there to get 49 gold then continue

west onto the hill to get a better look.

I'm going for Animal Husbandry because of the pigs and the ivory.

3880BC:
Popped a map from the second hut (to the NW). Got a look at some great land to the north

with sheep and corn and floodplains.

3680BC:
Got 68 more gold from a hut south of Moscow. Still waiting on AH and my worker.

3640BC:
Met Issabella. No big deal. Just said hi.

3600BC:
Got AH. Scout got attacked by wolves but he's OK. I think I'll start heading for BW to

see where my copper is.

3520BC:
Completed my worker. Now to get those pigs. Started a warrior 'cause I think I've pushed

it far enough. I've already met Izzy and if she knew I was defenseless she'd be over here

in a heartbeat.

3360BC:
Sure enough, Izzy arrives on my doorstep with a warrior. I am 1 turn away from my own

warrior so I think I'm OK but these are the conflicts I don't like.

As for the land, it looks like I have some choke-point strategy to work with. I've

noticed horses and stone and corn and sheep, but I can't get them all with one city. So

where should I put city #2? In the choke-point? Grab the horses (for Cossaks later)?

Get the floodplains/corn/sheep for some serious food? Hmmm.

3240BC:
Finished pasture on the pigs and moved over to the Elephants to start a camp. Started

another warrior after the last one because I don't like Izzy that close.

Maybe I'll work up a force and beat her down. Let's see.

3160BC:
My second warrior is built and now I think I can start on a settler. I need to expand and

snag some of these resources. It's looking more and more like I'm on a semi-island. I am

wondering where to put the impending city #2, the choke-point or the floodplains.

The choke-point is kind of far away so maint will be more for quite some time. And I

think the floodplains will give me enough food to build a third settler before too long.

I'm thinkin' floodplains.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by padillah
3520BC:
Completed my worker. Now to get those pigs. Started a warrior 'cause I think I've pushed

it far enough. I've already met Izzy and if she knew I was defenseless she'd be over here

in a heartbeat.


3360BC:
Sure enough, Izzy arrives on my doorstep with a warrior. I am 1 turn away from my own

warrior so I think I'm OK but these are the conflicts I don't like.

Building warriors at this point is a good idea; they'll help you explore farther, make contact with AI's sooner and find more huts, and they're useful in defending against barbs. However, it's very unlikely the AI will attack you at this point; unlike in Civ III, the AI dosn't generally start uber-early game wars.

As for the land, it looks like I have some choke-point strategy to work with. I've

noticed horses and stone and corn and sheep, but I can't get them all with one city. So

where should I put city #2? In the choke-point? Grab the horses (for Cossaks later)?

Get the floodplains/corn/sheep for some serious food? Hmmm.

Well, it depends on how many cities you'll make, how close the choke point is to you and to isabella, ect. A choke point city is a good idea, but if you think you have time, it might be better to get it as your third city, getting the big food city first, for a better economy and settler production.

Maybe I'll work up a force and beat her down. Let's see.

Unless you're doing some very specific focused rush stratagy, a full-scale invasion is usually not practical until you get at least axes, and I don't usually bother trying until swords. However, if you wanted to, you could hassle her with warriors, steal a worker and do some pillaging. You don't really need to though.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Well.. I've played through a bit so far, and I'm sure that others can do better.

But damn it, I said I wasn't going straight for AH, and I meant it!

I don't want to give too much away but here goes:

3520 BC gain BW
3240 BC gain Wheel
2800 BC gain AH (aren't you all happy now?)
2640 BC gain Mystism
2360 BC gain Meditation
2320 BC Found St. Petersburg and work on hooking up Copper
2200 BC gain Priesthood
1920 BC gain Writing
1760 BC gain Agriculture
1560 BC gain Pottery
1280 BC - ??? builds Stonehenge
950 BC gain CoL and found Confucionism in St. Pete
800 BC completes Oracle in St Pete
775 BC gains Civil Service
700 BC gains Alphabet
645 BC - ??? builds Pyramids
575 BC gain IW
425 BC trade CoL to Chinese for Masonry, Archery and Fishing
425 BC gain Mathematics

And that's where I am right now. It looks like Isabella has four cities and two of them are encroaching on my territory, plus the Chinese have confuncionism so I'll let them live.

I'm 14 turns away from getting the GS in Moscow to build my Academy (GPP from GS specialist from Lib).

My current situation is as follows:

Moscow: Barracks, Library, Scientist specialist, building axemen. and then will build another settler

St Petersburg: Barracks, Temple, Prophet Specialist, Oracle, building another worker.

Current Unit situation: 3 workers, 6 warriors, and 9 Axemen.

Preparing to go to war with Isabella, planning to capture at least one city and hopefully two depending on their size.

Thoughts?

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Another update because.. hell, why not?

I'm doing OK but this is really taking far too long! Arrgh! This is always my problem on Noble.

From where I left off above:

375 BC Declare WAR on Isabella
350 BC Capture Seville
250 BC Meirt Ptah born in Moscow - Academy is built
200 BC gain Currency
150 BC gain Polytheism
125 BC gain Monotheism
100 BC Capture Barcelona
100 BC Novgorod founded (First built coastal city!)
50 BC gain Literature
50 AD - ??? Builds Parthenon
150 AD gain Music, GA sent to Barcelona (Choke point city)
175 AD gain Sailing
200 AD Capture Cordoba
225 AD GA pops borders at Barcelona and effectively cuts off Spain
250 AD -??? Discovers Christianity
245 AD Peace Treaty w/ Isabella for all her gold (50)
Currently researching Compass

Stats:

Moscow: Finishing axeman build (1 turn) then onto GL (cross fingers on that one.. the war went on too long me thinks)
St. Pete: Building worker, 35 turns until GP and Shrine, then build Courthouse (losing 4 commerce per turn)
Seville: Building courthouse, then a workboat
Barcelona: Building courthouse
Novgorod: Building workboat
Cordoba: Building workboat

I had to declare peace with Isabella before finishing her off because I don't want to miss the GL and Moscow is really my center for production at this point. Also, she's cut off and might be useful in the future.. we'll see.

I'm losing money running at 90% research and need not only the GL but also to build the infrastructure and improvements to get all these captured cities on line.

I went from two cities to six, capturing three and building a third myself. The Maintenance cost is killing me right now, so it's time to fix my economy. Also, Moscow isn't producing commerce/research the way it should because of building so many workers/settlers.. It has a long way to expand.

Unit stats: 6 workers (1 on the way), 6 warriors (need to be upgraded but I might see if I can wait until Macemen), 13 axemen (more than a few with city raider 3!).

In all my conquests so far I've lost a total of 1 warrior and 1 axeman.

Score: 614 - Tom's Laptop; 446 Mao, 234 Isabella

Like I said before.. Not doing too poorly, but still at 245 AD I feel I should have made more progress. And I'm very worried about being able to grab the GL because Isabella pumped out more cities than I thought she would, which made the war go on longer, which bumped back the time I could start on the GL.

Also not having the GP to build the Shrine yet is a killer, especially since I believed I had gotten a good jump on GPP in St. Petersburg.

Hey! Maybe you guys can help both me and Padilla out in the same thread!

[padillah]

I'm up for a second update as well.

I decided to stop where I did because I think it's a good discussion point. I have a few good techs I could go after and I'd like to see what you guys say.


3080BC:
Got BW. Now I'm going for wheel 'cause I've gotta be able to hook these resource up sooner or later. I've got a warrior going around one side of the "island" and the scout around the other.

2840BC:
Contact with Mao. If this is a peninsula I have no idea where he came from. Have to keep an eye out.

Got Wheel, now on to Agriculture then Pottery, let's tart taking advantage of all this river.

Found Copper to the SE, I suppose I can make my third city (or second?) over there to grab that copper and establish a coastal city. Gonna need fishing one of these days.

2760BC:
Out comes a settler, now on to my fourth warrior. In defference to wanting the copper I think I'll head south. Plus the chinese are down there somewhere and I don't need them getting their hands on it leaving me in the lurch. I figure I'll settle at the corner of land (one tile south of the copper). This is my favorite coastal position cause it limits the amount of coast tiles in the fat cross.

2600BC:
Settled St. Petersburgh near the copper. First thing I'm shooting for is a barracks. I figure it'll be the first city to have axemen so it'd better be ready. Nice littloincidence of city placement is the river will carry the copper to my capitol and possibly my third city avoiding the embarrasing road plunder shutting things down.

2400BC:
Got Pottery. This is turning out to be a lot more land than I thought. Looks like I was wrong about the choke up north. I may be able to hem Izzy in but that will just make her mad so I better be ready.

Well, now what do I research next? I'm looking at Archery, Horseback Riding, Fishing, Writing, Mysticism, Iron Working, and Masonry. Now what?

I'm picking Horseback Riding as a placekeeper but I kinda think that's where I'll head in defference to the Cossaks. But I can come back and get this 'cause I have many other techs before Cossaks and HR doesn't do anything but Cossaks. I don't have any specials in view of my one costal city so I don't need Fishing, but it'll only take 3 turns so I could do it just to get it out of the way.

Tom P.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by padillah
I'm up for a second update as well.


Well, now what do I research next? I'm looking at Archery, Horseback Riding, Fishing, Writing, Mysticism, Iron Working, and Masonry. Now what?

I'm picking Horseback Riding as a placekeeper but I kinda think that's where I'll head in defference to the Cossaks. But I can come back and get this 'cause I have many other techs before Cossaks and HR doesn't do anything but Cossaks. I don't have any specials in view of my one costal city so I don't need Fishing, but it'll only take 3 turns so I could do it just to get it out of the way.

Tom P.

Uhh... I missed something. I thought St Pete was your second city that gained the copper? If so... it shouldn't be coastal because you're missing out on die (I think) and Gems by moving it inland.

I've already given you my choice of tech paths... right now, I'm currently very bored and about ready to end the game because it's too damn boring. (I'll post an update later) It might get more interesting when both my Caravels find other Civs to trade with.. but right now, I'm going to just go ahead and crush Isabella's capitol and then move south towards Mao because.. Hell, he's starting to encroach as well.

I guess my question is "What is your one coastal city?"

Did you found a second city before you got BW? (A Huge mistake, no matter what the game, IMO).

I'll post the details of my results in a later message (don't feel like doing it right now.. it's 10:30 and about time to head to bed), but I got my first caravel built in 820 AD and it came from Barcelona of all places... That's right. The city that I GA popped for culture to provide a checkpoint built the first caravel.

I don't know what time it is right now.. But I'm about 10-15 turns away from cicumnavigating the globe.

And.. I'm not doing anything special or fancy or spectacular. In fact, all I'm doing is stealing Vel's Strat on Completing the Slingshot and changing it a bit early on in order to adapt to the difference in rulers and the differences in resources.

Other than that... my tech path and my build path is identical.

It works.. and It works well. Last time I checked, I just conquered a Barb city (had to have my army sit there and wait until it got to Pop 2.. that sucked and took a while but oh well), and I've got more than enough weapons to take out Isabella for good (unless she built another city off continent using Gallerys.. In which case.. good for her and really even better for me!), and then easily turn my attention to taking out Mao who is now starting to become a pain.

But that's all he is.. a pain. At this point I can build enough macemen when combined with my current army, that will wipe out all his continental cities.

That's next. I just don't know how much longer I'll really enjoy playing after I take out 'bella and Mao.

And in case you're asking yourself this question: Well Guess what nimrod? You still didn't fulfill the requirements by winning a domination victory! I'd say... Yes, you're correct.

But at that point, we're talking about expanding/invading with Galleys because Galleon is still a very long way off. And pretty much, that's when I stop attacking and try to win through means other than domination.

And as I've said before.. it takes too damn long!

Maybe I should have already built galleys with an axeman and a settler in them in order to gain footholds in other places?

I dunno.... Not sure... Really, I'm not. I'd love some help. But Right now (before I've circumnavigated the globe and destroyed Izzy and Mao) I'm just barely getting back into a decent economic footing.

I can't imagine sending out a Galley with a Settler and Axeman and knowing I need to send another Galley out after them with workers and maybe more military support before Caravels.

My problems:

I go to war when I have axemen and my neighbors don't.

I don't expand off "my" piece of real estate until I have galleons (unless theres an easily taken island close by).

Like I said before.... I never lose on this level. It just takes me too damn long to WIN! I'm pretty damn sure I've already won this game. The continent/island is mine already, its just a matter of building enough macemen to destroy Mao.

At that point, I'll have enough cities and enough land mass in order to win a space victory..

What keeps me playing is that space race isn't a victory condition!

Which is why I've turned off time and space race in all my games. I still win eventually, but it sitll takes FAR too long!

Arrrgh! I'm doing something wrong and need some help somewhere!

As far as Paddy goes: I built St Pete by the Copper, the dye, and the Gems. That was my second city, but then again.. I knew it was there and was able to go get it right away because I went BW first instead of going AH first which everybody else seems to think is the best course of action.

Which I still don't understand, considering Moscow (founded at starting location) had PLENTY of resources on its own... especially when you START with CAMP and get the Elephants right away.

Then again... like I said.. I'm bored because there is no threat to my Civ at all at this point, and yet I'm in a bit of a quagmire. Maybe if I went worker first and AH I'd be 100 or so years ahead... I'm not sure.

But I do know that I lost THREE comabt 1 axemen to a SINGLE barb axeman. Plus the two scouts I lost and 1 or 2 warrior "scouts" I had sent out.

So I'm not really sold on the idea of going 'worker first'.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by padillah
I'm up for a second update as well.
I decided to stop where I did because I think it's a good discussion point. I have a few good techs I could go after and I'd like to see what you guys say.
Tom P.

First, some general points. Don't be too worried by the AI this early, check the Demographics and see where you are for military: if you're way behind then you're at risk. You are right to build warriors but don't leave more than one in a city. They should be out of your borders 'clearing the fog' to reduce Barb spawning. The roads you built aren't really needed (yet). Would have been better to move the worker down to St Pete along with the settler in order to build the mine immediately. And then add a road to link it back to Moscow.

Set the city governers to max Food/Hammers/Commerce. This avoids odd choices. Tweak it if you have a short term goal, but it works well (thanks Blake). Also, build granaries before barracks and switch Civics to Slavery right now. This is probably the most powerful civic in the game because of the turn advantage you can get from pop-rushing buildings and units.

Research - you're right about Horseback: it's weak until Knights come along and only powerful with Cav/Cossacks. Switch to Writing: it's another key tech and allows Open Borders which will boost your relations with the AI. After that, Ironworking so you can clear jungle near St Pete and mine those Gems. (I beelined to Alphabet, ignoring wheel, agri, etc., but with only two AI this was probably not the best strategy).

I played a few turns on from your save to illustrate some of my ideas:

2400 - Switch to Granaries (from Barracks). Research to Writing and revolt to Slavery. Move warrior out of Moscow to clear fog around the sheep/horses (city 3). Worker ordered to the copper.
2320 - Granary rushed in Moscow. Cost 2 Pop, saved 7 turns IIRC. Barracks next.
2080 - Copper hooked up.
Next up: Library in Moscow, but may be interrupted by a rushed Settler who will found Novgorod for sheep, FPs and horses.

[SebP]

4000 started on worker and Animal Husbandry
popped mysticism
popped wheel!
3600: AH, starting on agriculture
3520: worker
3360: Agriculture, started on pottery
3280: pig pasture moving to elephants
3160: finished camp
3120 found beijing
2960: pottery. now for bronze working, finally. 3rd warrior built, starting on granary. still no settler builds! also, starting

first grassland cottage (worker has been building roads since 3160)
2920: discovered the spanish and the choke point
2840: cottage built, working. BW on 5
2680 full knowledge of the continent, except beyond teh spansih choke point. finally found the horses just north
2640: BW. and cottage built. writing in 6. bronze is just where is was planning on building my troops training centre!
2600: granary built. hm this doesn't work out o_O. still, not building settlers, but 2 more warriors
2400: lost a scout
2360: writing. getting: alphabet! granary finished. moscow now size 5 and growing while building a library
2160: open borders with chinese and spanish on their demands. spanish founded barcelona in the chokepoint
2040: moscow grows to 7, working elephants, pigs 4 grassland cottages and 1 unimproved silk. start on settler
2000: kill 3 pop to get that settler
1960: size 4. go on to finish library. working pigs and 3 cottages
1880: library finished. go on with barracks
1840: st peters founded. starts on worker (moscow will be occupied for a while)
1800: alphabet. izzy and mao won't trade o_O? oh well. research meditation and priesthood then
1760 worker sent to st peters
1640 starting on code of laws, 10 turns
1600 st peters connected to trade network. now getting to that copper
1560 moscow is back to size 7 and starts another settler
1520 settler rushed
1480 settler on the way to the flood plains north. mining and pottery to isabella for fishing and archery
1360 novgorod founded. it's quite sad but we need to build a worker here too. because i decided to still choprush the oracle in st.

peters
1320 worker in st peters finished, also the copper mine. starting oracle (30 turns). spanish founded seville north of the oasis on teh

coast west of the choke point
1240 CoL. confucianism founded in st peters. starting reserach on mathematics (6 turns) to chop in the oracle
1120 another settler is rushed in moscow. this one is going to the western coast, (clam and corn). an archer has already gotten

there. confucianism spread to moscow. the missionary just arrived on the borders of beijing!
1000 got mathematics. time to get metal casting now... converted beijing, mao will switch (note i'm still a heathen for fear of

provoking isabella! anyways. mao and isabella won't trade anymore now.)

900 the oracle is finished and i get myself civil service. AFTER founding 4 cities total (well on my way to the 5th) and getting alphabet and mathematics. THIS is how you do the slingshot on noble (it's a compromise, you don't get an academy early and CS quite a few years later). alphabet wasn't worth much btw, should have gotten mathematics and then metal casting right away i guess

I'll get another settler now from moscow, after that try to get a great scientist before teh great prophet from the oracle pops in st peters. might or might not work. meanwhile, military buildup will begin. i will destroy the spanish and let the chinese live i think
i don't have iron working (only 3 turns) yet, but you can build maceman with copper, and machinery is due in 500BC. the spanish will die at nearly no cost.
Now. galleons will be around soon, i don't know yet in what order i will conquer the world. the chinese will be confucianism, same as me, probably