Make me a better player, please.

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by gdgrimm
Do NOT build any World Wonders at all.

If you want to be a better player then I suggest that you do not start by tyring to master the CS slingshot.

I use the CS slingshot all the time however I was capable of holding my own - cultural, diplomatic, domiantion victories - before I learned about the tactic. Now if I miss the slingshot I'm capable of recovering however, if you base your entire game on pulling off this strategy what happens to your game if you fail?

There's a lot of good advice given in this thread but as far as I can see gdgrimm's advice above is the best. Explanation:

I used to follow a similar startegy to what you describe in the opening post (do you try to get as many religions as you can as well?) at noble level. I couldn't wage offensive wars at all, was weak at defending myself and could only get a time or close spacerace victory.

By refusing to allow myself to build wonders or found religions I had to learn generic strategies. After a few games I had picked up some useful habits - more effective use of specialists, automatically building up a good defensive military, having a better idea of how large an army should be for specific offenses, financial management, more strategic use of worker improvements and better use of great people - so that when I went back to allowing myself to build wonders I would gladly let most of them go by and only determinedly go for the ones that would really aid my civ.

The generic response to gdgrimm's post was that there are good wonders that you should be building. This is true. But if you learn to play without any wonders you'll be able to decide for yourself how useful a wonder is to the specific game you're playing.

1) Should you try playing a few games without building any wonders I also advise that you not found any religions either. It'll help in teaching the relative value of the early game technologies - which ones are important in certain starting positions and which ones can be gotten at a later stage.

2) If you're going to try playing without building wonders don't use an Industrial civ unless you want to really handicap yourself.

[rrs_racer]

OK, here's what I did when faced with that scenario.

First thought: The Russians, who I've not ever played before. They're creative and financial. Financial next to a river means cottages become a lot more important a lot earlier, whilst creative means I can found a second and third city without having to worry about where that first border expansion is coming from.

NICE starting place. Pigs on a hill nearby, plenty of hills, plenty of grassland. The only thing missing is a flood plain.

I moved off the hill, and founded the city SSW of there the pigs are. This allows good hammer production in the long term at the expense of a single short-term hammer per turn. Just personal preference really. Also I was in range of the spices specials for a bit later on, and still in range of lots of nice juicy hills.

First tech was Animal Husbandry (pig reasons), first build was worker. I thought worker before warrior because a) it's noble level, and you can take a few more liberties with security than otherwise, and b) the *absolute* first priority is to get those pigs pastured and hooked up. 5 surplus food on one square means you're free to work those mined hills as soon as the city becomes size 2, for 6 hammers/turn.

Got some incredible luck with popping huts - I got Mysticism, Horseback Riding as well as a free Warrior and 100 gold or so.

After I got Mysticism, I stupidly decided to try for Meditation, and Buddhism - I missed it by 3 turns.

After a few more warriors, the city is size 3 - I then built a settler to go for a spot along the river to the NW. This has easy access to sheep, ivory and hills, as well as grassland for cottages.

So here I am, in 1520BC, with a third city site being prepped right now, and a settler on its way. There's so much forest around Moscow (I even had 2 extra squares grow) that the plan is going to involve getting that stone hooked up, getting Mathematics and chopping the Pyramids (which should only take 10 turns or so). One that's done I can get some nice big cities and go for Representation.

I've completely ignored the Oracle, partly because of the lack of marble, and partly because I'm hopeless at the CS Slingshot.

So the current situation at 1520BC is attached. The plan is to go for Code of Laws after Mathematics - I'm pretty certain I'll be first to it. I'm wondering whether to clean up the techs I don't have after CoL, or to go straight to Alphabet and trade them. I might well do the latter - I'm pretty sure I have a big tech lead.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by padillah
@SebP & Swiss Pauli: I guess the thing I don't like about Space Race is how short it used to be. Time too. I don't want to stop playing just because it's time to stop playing.

But how are you planning to win now that it's off? Launch dates in the first attempts are often mid C20th, which is quite a long game.

@Swiss Pauli: I was going to go for Mysticism first, then BW and on but you have a point about the pigs. But won't they hold till after the slingshot? I've got plenty of food from the grassland and my health won't be a problem for a while.

Animal Husbandry is also a pre-req for Writing. You want food specials to be used ASAP, so your pop can grow and do other things (like be whipped, or, here, work the elephants/cottages for some gold=research for a CS Sling attempt).
The AI will research Mysticism and it will make it cheaper to research a bit later, after researching BW, for example.

[SebP]

Originally posted by Padillah
I was going to go for Mysticism first, then BW and on but you have a point about the pigs. But won't they hold till after the slingshot? I've got plenty of food from the grassland and my health won't be a problem for a while.

Depends on what you consider "plenty". The most basic rule is that tiles that yield more Food/commerce/production, anything really, will be better. Also, for various reasons, food is especially strong early. The improved pigs will be, what, 5 food and 1 shield? A tile like that will give you a lot of options.

a) build grassland cottages for your citizens 2-6: You will always have a food surplus of 5, which means you will grow to size 6 in less than half the time than with only 2 food surplus. All 5 grassland cottages will be worked earlier, produce more gold, grow earlier.... You lose a grassland cottage which would be worked by the first population point, but will work 5 cottages when you'd else be working 3. It comes out way better than just equal.
After growing to maxsize, you don't need to work the pigs anymore, but can work a 6th cottage.
Or, better than this, you could switch to slavery and kill some of your population for shields. You can continously kill 2 or 3 of them for settler after settler. It may sound unintuitive, but with high food like that, in they little time they need to grow back, they would never have produced as much of anything. After the unhappiness has gone after 10 turns, whip in the next settler and archer.
Works especially well if the first ones are killed to get a granary.
That's what i'd do in that position... though it's also suited for the slingshot

b) build plains cottages instead. You'll STILL grow faster than only using grassland cottages and have hammers too
Slavery is also still an option.

c) It will also help with the slingshot, you can poprush the library and feed 2 scientist specialists

d) You can work mines as rrs_racer did. Blake's threads showed me the light though, and i rely much more on poprushing than mines now

Thus, I would, as Swiss Pauli, also advise to start with animal husbandry and would then proceed to pottery, financial on a river in that position. I would build the worker right away though.

Originally posted by Thedrin

Originally posted by gdgrimm
Do NOT build any World Wonders at all.
If you want to be a better player then I suggest that you do not start by tyring to master the CS slingshot.

There's a lot of good advice given in this thread but as far as I can see gdgrimm's advice above is the best.

I agree.
I only learned the slingshot when i was struggling when beginning on monarch. Also, i can get by without it now.

[padillah]

@rrs_racer: Thanks for playing this out with me. That will give me a chance to see what I could have done and I might be able to see why that would be better. It also provides me with a background to say "he made it so I can too".

I think I'm going to settle right where I stand. I'm on a hill for defence and I've got river all over but mostly for the spices. That's gonna be serious money, especially with a fin leader and then more when calander gets here.

@Swiss Pauli: How to win? Good question. I think that with my aversion to war I'd like to try a conquest or Dom victory. This means I have to wage war, I have to build units, I have to do a lot of stuff that bothered me before.

I have a problem when I get more than three or four units in a city. Or, I'll go the other way and have 15 or 20 units and never attack (for no good reason).

Good point about the relationship between food<>gold<>research, I overlook that sometimes and overvalue it at others.

OK, since I have not made any moves yet (My laptop crashed as I poped the first hut) I think I will revise my current strategy.

When I get home I plan on going for AH and a worker first. I'm still going NW to the hut and W to explore (if I remember correctly I saw a lot af desert north so for now I'll head due W).

In deference to several good peoples recommendation I will forego concentrating on the CS sling or even on wonders. I still would discuss and if the benefit is too great will build as needed (I don't think I need to cut off my nose to spite my face).

Wow, thanks for the great help guys. I feel better about this game already.
Tom P.

[Arrian]

I cannot possibly stress how important it is to get your special resources working. In this case, apparently, pigs. Animal Husbandry isn't even really a detour since it's a prereq for Writing... and plus it will show you horses, so it's go all sortsa value.

You need to alter your tech path to match up with your specific situation. If your start gives you clams, you make sure you get fishing if you don't already have it. If you're dealt pigs, get AH. And so on.

-Arrian

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by padillah
In deference to several good peoples recommendation I will forego concentrating on the CS sling or even on wonders. I still would discuss and if the benefit is too great will build as needed (I don't think I need to cut off my nose to spite my face).
Tom P.

Be very sure about those wonders that you do build. Personally I would recommend only building a wonder if there are no useful buildings left to build and if further military expansion will hurt you scientifically and you cannot assign production to wealth, science or culture. The aim of the no wonder/no religion exercise is to learn how to use the games features so that you can win despite your noseless face.

[Arrian]

Be sure about normal buildings, too, though! I mean, don't spend 20 turns building a library in a city that produces almost no beakers. If you have a size 6 city that will be healthy up to size 12, you really don't need that aqueduct yet.

It's good to stop yourself occasionally and ask: Why am I building X this city? To what point and purpose?

-Arrian

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by padillah
@Swiss Pauli: How to win? Good question. I think that with my aversion to war I'd like to try a conquest or Dom victory. This means I have to wage war, I have to build units, I have to do a lot of stuff that bothered me before.
Tom P.

Right, we've got our goal and it doesn't involve building wonders: we're going to take them by force! After AH, we go for BW, then a few cities (with granaries and barracks) and get a horde of axemen together. To this end, 2nd or 3rd city should be in range of Copper, unless we get some in Moscow's borders.

PS: to the north we have some flood plains and they're very good tiles.

[rah]

Sometimes I'll build aquaducts before I need them if I know I'll need one in the future and I'm waiting on a military tech and don't want to build current units.

[Quillan]

If you plan on playing the military game with Cathy, you'll get to experience the joy of Cossacks later on. My luck with Cathy, though, is that copper is never within Moscow's borders. In fact, it's rarely within my borders at all. I usually have to settle a new city or wait for a border expansion before I gain access to it.

[rah]

I LOVE COSSACKS, but right now I'm experimenting with custom continents and trying for Culture win. (playing the germans) Science suffers a touch when you're going for culture so the AIs are considerably ahead in techs(no tech trading). Catherine is on a nearby Island and as the mid game approached I tried everything I could to keep her happy but we all know Catherine. (slap) Every few turns her superior navy drops another SOD on my land. But to my suprise, I've seen artillary, rifleman, sam infantry, and knights, BUT NOT A SINGLE COSSACK. I'm shocked that it wasn't a tech priority for her. I've been able to fight off all of her invasions but still fear the stacks of dozens of cossacks. Cannons and Calvary may not be enough unless I have more than enough.

[DrSpike]

Looks as though the savefile is not correctly attached to the OP.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Looks as though the savefile is not correctly attached to the OP.

That's what I was thinking.

Also.. what of the difficulty level? I thought I read somebody mention 'noble', but IIRC, Padillah was having difficulty winning on Warlord.

Did he jump a difficulty level?

[SebP]

The game is on noble. If you click on the link, does a page with several textboxes open? The last one, tagged "full image url" or something, has the url of the save.