Advice on Specialists!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
Do you get food (still) from a GM if settled as a "superspecialist?"

Yes. Settle six GMs and you can run three specialists with their food. Settle them in the Wall St city with 200% multiplier and that's 18 gold too.

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by zhuren
A short question on Specialists/Great People.

In the course of the game, the number of GP points required for a Great Person to be born rises gradually.
By which factors is this increase in GP Point requirement affected? I found that cities which had not produced any GP points in the AA need to gather a much higher amount of these later.

Also, deriving from this: Is it fair to say that the ancient age is the best time to spawn GPs because of the higher "rate"?

The only factor I know of is the number of previous GP's. I looked at one city recently right before and after a GP birth in another and it seemed to be going up by a factor of 300, per GP, i.e. 2400 jumps to 2700 after the next GP, but that's based on one observation and the rate may rise geometrically, I'm not sure; in any case it's based soley on number of GP's previously "born" to you.

What I think Cort is talking about in his first post just after is that Great Prophets are not considered real valuable, especially late game, when they run out of technologies to "discover" and are only good as "superspecialists" or part of a Golden Age, (which requirements also rise incrementally.) He runs a lot of priests anyway, (Angkor Wat facilitates this,) when he has a lot of food to feed them, because they are worth production, culture and commerce and can exceed the totals derived from some tiles, particularly late game when you are left with your least desired ones to fill. For players like him, Great Person Production, (GPP) becomes a secondary benefit.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

All cities require the same amount of GPP in order to produce one.

The amount of points required depends on game length and the number of GP that have been produced prior.

I don't know what you mean by early cities that never produced any GPP seem to require more.

[zhuren]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
The only factor I know of is the number of previous GP's. I looked at one city recently right before and after a GP birth in another and it seemed to be going up by a factor of 300, per GP, i.e. 2400 jumps to 2700 after the next GP, but that's based on one observation and the rate may rise geometrically, I'm not sure; in any case it's based soley on number of GP's previously "born" to you.

That's what I thought. However, I made different observations in my last game with England, which led me to believe that the GP requirement is somehow related to the tech rate.
The other possibility would be overall (including foreign GP) births (unfair?!).

[zhuren]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
All cities require the same amount of GPP in order to produce one.

The amount of points required depends on game length and the number of GP that have been produced prior.

Which is the number of GPs born to your nation right?
(just to clarify)

I don't know what you mean by early cities that never produced any GPP seem to require more.

That was based on the thought that GP requirement is mainly affected by the number of GPs previously spawned in each individual city.

[Cort Haus]

IIRC, at Normal speed the first 10 GPs cost 100 points more each time, starting at 100. The next ten cost 200 points more each time, and after that they cost 300 points more each time.

If you have one fast GP producer and a load of slow ones, the slow ones may never make it - wasting a lot of GPP points. I sometimes hold back with the specialists on the main producer to let the smaller ones finish theirs while the going is still relatively cheap. Similarly, I sometimes delay building the Heroic Epic to allow minor GP producers to finish their job.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by zhuren
That was based on the thought that GP requirement is mainly affected by the number of GPs previously spawned in each individual city.

No, it doesn't matter how many that city has produced.

[zeace]

I beleive the number of GPP required is 100 for the 1st, 200 2nd... 1000 10th, 1200 11th, 1400 12th ... 3000 20th, 3300 21st ...

That's on normal speed. Other speeds multiply accordingly.

Basically though, your first 10 GPs are way cheaper than the next 10, and after that they are even more expensive.

When I play a game focused on GPs, I only really focus on the first 10. I'll do my best to specialize cities to pop the right ones at the right times. After those 10 though I let stop micro-managing the GPPs, and build any wonder in any city that can use it.

At this late game stage, I find it's more important to make sure that any city that has a reasonable number of GPPs gets the opportunity to make GP. Often a 4th or 5th city will have it's GPP bar 80% full, but because other cities produce many more GPPs, this city is constantly catching-up to the ever increasing total, and never builds. Adding a specialist to this city or removing one from a another can let you "cash out" these GPPs. After the cash out, this city will likely never make GPPs fast enough to make a GP, so I take away most of it's specialists and focus on production.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by zhuren

Which is the number of GPs born to your nation right?
(just to clarify)

Yes. Although if it were world-wide GP born, it would certainly add an interesting twist to the game!

That was based on the thought that GP requirement is mainly affected by the number of GPs previously spawned in each individual city.

No, it doesn't matter. But remember that when a GP is 'born', they use all the GPP in that city. However, the next level is rasied every where. So it is possible (and actually preferred sometimes.. ) to have a second city begin generating GPPs even though it is far behind the first city. Because once the first GP is born in the first city, that city's points will go to zero. Both cities "Points to Next GP" will go increase, but the second city doesn't lose it's points. So it has a head start.

To summarize: the only conditions that matter in how many GPPs are needed are length of game and the number of GP born in your nation previously.

Hope that helps!

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by zeace

When I play a game focused on GPs, I only really focus on the first 10. I'll do my best to specialize cities to pop the right ones at the right times. After those 10 though I let stop micro-managing the GPPs, and build any wonder in any city that can use it.

DAMN! You specialize your GP all the way through the first ten? Can you provide a skeleton outline of how you plan ahead that far? That'd be a great help.

I don't plan beyond four or five! And at least one of those is 'Free'!

[zeace]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


DAMN! You specialize your GP all the way through the first ten? Can you provide a skeleton outline of how you plan ahead that far? That'd be a great help.

I don't plan beyond four or five! And at least one of those is 'Free'!

Check my posts way earlier in this thread...

Also notice that I said "When play a game focused on GPs". If I'm just playing attention to my GPs while pursuing another strategy, I agree that the first 4 or 5 is about all you have the energy to plan for. But in a big GPP game with 4 cities focused on making GPs, the first 10 come along pretty quick.

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


DAMN! You specialize your GP all the way through the first ten? Can you provide a skeleton outline of how you plan ahead that far? That'd be a great help.

I don't plan beyond four or five! And at least one of those is 'Free'!

Yeah that would!

BTW, an unanswered aspect of Zhuren's original question is whether Ancient Age is best for GPP. I think only to the extent that they are cheaper there, plus you get full option to select technology with Great Prophets, which despite best efforts by some, (including me) to minimize them for the advantages of other GP, tend to pop up a lot. (I know now the "shadow governor," when allocating pop, tends to favor priest-specialists, at least if you have any religious buildings/Wonders.) Great Prophets, remembering, run out of technology discovery options about mid-game.

In an illustration of another (admittedly inadvertent) approach, I am now playing an odd game, where due to fear of aggression and getting beat out for Wonders, I have them scattered all over, with very little "specialization" in the early game. (Yes, as a recent convert to "specilization," I hate this particular game.) I've straightened it out during the Renaissance Era, where, I'm popping more GP now than the AI, though they exceeded me in the Ancient Age. Lucky my difficulty is only Noble, but I have a good position on the power graph, by other means; and am now moving up with the unexpected bonus of superior GPP!

[Quillan]

Base numbers: your first GP appears when any city reaches 100 GP points. The second comes in when any city reaches 200 GP points, but the city that produces a GP drops to zero and starts adding again. On Epic speed, these get multiplied by 1.5, IIRC, and it's by 3 on Marathon. At the 10th GP (1000 points base), it goes up to 200 additional points per GP, and each 10 beyond that increases it by an additional 100 points base.

The one thing of which I'm uncertain because I rarely play philosophical leaders is if the 100% increase from Philo is doubled by the 100% increase from Pacifism (2x2=400% point generation) or if it's like everything else in that 100%+100%=200% additional point generation.

I never seem to specialize that much unless I'm going after a cultural victory. I can usually find a use for anything. Excess prophets become excess profits; I settle them in the city with Wall Street and each prophet winds up adding 15 gold per turn plus a small amount of production.

[zhuren]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
BTW, an unanswered aspect of Zhuren's original question is whether Ancient Age is best for GPP. I think only to the extent that they are cheaper there, plus you get full option to select technology with Great Prophets, which despite best efforts by some, (including me) to minimize them for the advantages of other GP, tend to pop up a lot.

At any rate, popping GP in AA should be a priority as game length appears to be a (quite) influential factor in the increase of GPP requirements! You will never get as many as early on if you miss the opportunity in Ancient Age. (seems like the start is crucial in almost every aspect of CIV)

Thanks RLM for clearing things up. I just mentioned the thought to explain my earlier statement (did read your first post).
Anyway, I usually play epic and had difficulties in spawning a decent amount Great People despite being Philosophical! (Obviously, The problem was that I waited too long and didn't build earlier wonders/select specialists.)

I figure that game length is a substantial factor being somewhat neglected in this discussion. Btw, thanks for all the numbers! Can anyone quantify the game length factor as well?

On a sidenote: Who else likes to use GP to start Golden Ages? And more specifically, what's your prohibitive price? (I find 3 quite expensive but 2 seem to be worthwile)

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


Yes. Although if it were world-wide GP born, it would certainly add an interesting twist to the game!



No, it doesn't matter. But remember that when a GP is 'born', they use all the GPP in that city. However, the next level is rasied every where. So it is possible (and actually preferred sometimes.. ) to have a second city begin generating GPPs even though it is far behind the first city. Because once the first GP is born in the first city, that city's points will go to zero. Both cities "Points to Next GP" will go increase, but the second city doesn't lose it's points. So it has a head start.

So practically speaking, it doesn't really make sense to have more than two GP farms, correct? (Certainly a third would pretty much never pop a GP except with extreme micromanagement.)