Advice on Specialists!

[zeace]

Originally posted by zeace

- Build a settler very early and found a high production city.
- Found a religion, it will end up in the new city
- 2nd city focuses on spreading religion and building GPr
- 3rd city is the food city, and it specializes as a GS city
- Build Pyramids in Capital, it will be a GE city. It won't produce a lot of GPP, but that's ok as it lets other cities keep up.
- 2nd city takes on all GPr and later GA wonders, and with enough wonders should be able to keep up with GE and GS cities even without much food
- If a nice coastal city is available, make it a GM city. If not, you probably aren't building the GM wonders anyway. You could build them in 2nd city...

So I tried this game last night, and I was very impressed by the results. I stacked the deck a little (no raging barbs, arid, continents) but I played on Noble so it isn't a complete joke (Marathon standard size). My first city was on a nice river with 3 flood and two food specials. So far so good. To the south there was a spot with 7 flood and 3 forests. But as my plan said that would be the 3rd city. I found a 3rd river site to the north with a few hills but mostly grass/jungle. Good enough to get some production though.

I playd as Gandhi so first research was BW, and there was copper near my chosen #2 site. After a few standard techs, I started reasearching Poly around the time I finished my first settler. Amazingly, I got Hinduism a couple turns after I built the new city. (I was planning on going for Mono/Jud, and ended up getting it in city #2 too).

I built another settler and hooked up the copper. I built a few axes to keep me safe and then started on the wonders. Pyramids in Capital, Parthenon in #2. #3 built mostly more settlers and workers. Eventually I built a #4 city on the coast.

When the Parthenon finished, I built two temples and started working two preists. Then monestary and some missionaries to get my other cities and neighbours (Monty & Fred) under my control. Then I started build Chichen Itza. The Cap built a few necessities and then Aqu/Hanging Gardens. Generous whipping helped everything along. City #3 built a library and great library. Around this time my first GP appears, an artist (doh!). Oh well, city #4 was losing a culture border battle so I used the bomb there. When the gardens finished I built a forge in the Cap and started working an Enigneer. Soon my first GE came. He went to city #4 and made the colossus. City #3 whipped in the GL. Soon thereafter I got a GS from city #3 and built the academy. When city #2 finished the Chichen, I had another GE ready and built the Angkor Wat there. Alas I got another GA...

Anyway, except for getting too many GA and still needing a GPr, this game is going very well. I have so much more culture than everyone else I'm sure I'll be able to win that way. My city #4 is about to pop a GM (unless the stupid governor and his pollution screw that up).

I wish I could figure out a way to avoid the GAs in city #2, but I think the parthenon is probably worth it. I know I've had good luck with other things, but I wish 66% would have given me a prophet. With all the wonders in there now it's giving me 80% chance, so hopefully the next one.

Anyway, if anyone wants to have a look here's the save:

[Generaldoktor]

Well, Zeace got wild GA's; when I have more time, I'll download his game and try to figure why, or somebody else can do it and tell me.

Blake has an idea for leaving the governor on, that should appeal to all who hate micromanagement. For me, I consider it part of the game and so it would be a big change to have it on, but I come to this place to get new ideas.

RLM is back with his latest research on what brings on the wildcard GP's, generally. Helpful, as always. (I get criticized by C4 fanatics for criticizing the game as much as I do, so I'm not going to weigh in on changes in "The Code." In general, I wish there was more time for playtesting changes before they are implemented, particularly after a game comes out.)

LordVelius, (who started the thread,) I hope you're reading all this, cuz your thread is starting to get some pretty good ideas here.

[Blake]

Blake has an idea for leaving the governor on, that should appeal to all who hate micromanagement. For me, I consider it part of the game and so it would be a big change to have it on, but I come to this place to get new ideas.

Really it's a matter of micro-managing the governor so you don't need to micromanage other things (things that you probably end up NOT micromanaging because it's waaaay more work). A governor without guidance is worse than useless, but the maximize buttons work quite well.
Basically, if you don't want any malcontents peeing in your GP pool, you gotta use the governor, or spend waaaaaaaaaaay too much time microing the population of each city.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor

Blake has an idea for leaving the governor on, that should appeal to all who hate micromanagement. F

RLM is back with his latest research on what brings on the wildcard GP's, generally. Helpful, as always.

Actually, what I think this thread has done is open up a discussion about the game mechanics of the 'city manager' and how Blake essentially refers to the concept that there are two separate city managers.

There's one that appears obvious (it normally starts highlighted unless you turn it off when building a new city), and that City manager will completely run your city except for your build que. Which means it moves citizens from place to place and does whatever it feels best, based upon what.. I don't know.

However, you can influence that manager by clicking one of the emphasis buttons. If you leave the City manager on, and put the emphasis on production, then the City Manager will do whatever it can to maximize production (without starving the population.. I assume??).

OR, there's kinda 'lesser' type of city manager. This city manager only pays attention to new citizens that are 'born' as your city expands. This manager apparently can't be turned off at all.

This distinction is really rather interesting, and if possible, I'd like Blake to expand a bit more in explaining how to control the two.

I think I get the gist of it:

Because the city doesn't ASK you where to place the NEW citizen upon birth, it has to place them somewhere. If you don't tell it which emphasis, it will choose on its own based upon some sort of calculation (which I'm not sure anybody really has a firm grasp of).

However, theoretically, if you were trying to build a GE city, and you turn off the city manager you might still get a new citizen assigned to as a specialist merchant (if you built a market) or an artist (if you built a theatre), because the 'new citizen manager' has no direction.

So in order to make sure your GPPs in your GE specialized city aren't polluted, you'd have to turn off the 'General' City manager, and then you'd still have to turn your emphasis on production on for the 'new citizen manager'.

Then again, that would only ensure no merchant or artist specialists as long as there was a tile available for that new citizen to work that would produce at least a single hammer.

So here's a question to Blake.. What happens if that isn't the case?

You have a city that is trying to make GEs and only GEs. You turn off the 'general' governor, and check emphasis on production. You build a forge and assign an engineering specialist.

Your city grows, but you are already working all available tiles that will produce hammers.

Where does the 'new citizen governor' place that new citizen? Assume you have a theatre and/or market for any possible scenario you would feel kind enough to explain to us.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
OR, there's kinda 'lesser' type of city manager. This city manager only pays attention to new citizens that are 'born' as your city expands. This manager apparently can't be turned off at all.

I think this "lesser" city manager can kick in under other circumstances as well. For example when a citizen can no longer work a tile because it is occupied by a barb or enemy unit. Another circumstance is when a change in civics or expiration of a wonder means that a particular specialist is no longer allowed. Perhaps the game should open the city window for you to deal with it, but it seems to make a judgement itself. I suspect that the effect may happen under other circumstances - for example after losing population through starvation or pop-rushing. Can anyone confirm ot deny this?

This "lesser" city manager has been around since Civ I and Civ II (I never played Civ III). New citizens would always be allocated to maximise food. This was mildly annoying when you wanted hammers or trade arrows. It was very annoying when the increased population put the city into disorder which could have been avoided by a different allocation.

RJM

[trev]

GP's created by running many specialists increases significantly in cost after each GP is born, and therefore the return from running specialists diminishes with time. I will often only deliberately run specialists early in the game for the quick tech boost they give when used to learn a tech. After this initial phase, GP's are created mainly from wonders, which I tend to concentrate in 1 high production city, so that the GP's are generated in a fairly regular timetable and also get GP's from running Mercantilism and building State of Liberty, particularly if I have a lot of ciites. In particular I like to build the GL, as it heavily influences the odds of getting GS's with its 2 free scientist. GP's from wonders are a nice bonus the wonders give you, GP's from specialists quickly becomes uneconomic as the game progresses and should be used for a limited time only.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by trev
GP's from specialists quickly becomes uneconomic as the game progresses and should be used for a limited time only.

Not necessarily. Running the specialists themselves can be economic, if food permits. Scientists in the Oxford city or Merchants in the Wall Street city with all multipliers built have strong 'tile yields' of their own. Settling six GMs in a low-food gold city allows 3 more specialists to be run, or 3 desert incense tiles to be worked.

I agree that the relative power of Great Persons is stronger in the early game. If settled, they give more long-term yield, and if burned they save more turns on research. So an early GS might save, say, 25-30 turns on Philosophy, where a later one might only save 2 turns on Fission.

[enderw]

The most important specialist usage early is to get an academy in your capital. Build a library nad throw two specialists in it until a GS pops out. (Note you do not have to build the library in your cap.)

Second if you found a religion that is spreading nicely, plop down a priest in one of your cities (esp. one with stonehenge if you built it) to get a prophet to build teh religions building.

Other than this, it is far more situational (GM's if short on food, GA if going for cultural victory, maybe a GS or GE to lighgtbulb certin techs).

Although Great Library + nat epit + pacifism is a great way to roll out a bunch of scintists without alot of effort. Often I pile all the scintists in that same city then build oxford there wheeeeeeeeee.

Also I suggest playing one city challenges if you really want to get the hang of great people, and get used to how they work.

[Generaldoktor]

RLM: Maybe I was trying to summarize a little too neat. (Haven't seen the author of the thread doing it.) The governor stuff is important.

RJMat: Agree with what you said about "lesser governor," but can't believe you never played Civ3!

Cort Haus vs. Trev.: I gotta agree with Cort; we wouldn't be wasting all these posts if most of us didn't find that specialist points toward GP were key and helpful. The Wonders themselves encourage the growth of available specialists; the two complement each other. Why wouldn't one take advantage of both ; I really can't see a formula that would prove a specialist mix doesn't further promote GP; the diminishment in late game is a given, for either and both. Specialists provide other benefits as well; I wouldn't use them in every city and some individual cost analysis should be run; (leaving mines untended to run specialists does need to be carefully considered. )

Also Trev, one GPP city, whether from Wonders or specialists or both, ignores all our fine work on specializing GP. I can't see a bunch of prophets and artists being as valuable as Great Engineers, especially as the game goes on and I think tailoring the mix by building Wonders that cater to certain kind of GP in a given city is important. If you want GPr or GA, then you are more likely to get them too, in a second city.

Enderw: For that reason, (the "mix," ) I wouldn't run National Epic in the same city as GL. You might get slightly more GP, but the wrong kind.

Also, you mention GM's for food shortage. This goes back to something earlier discussed. After the v.157 patch, I didn't see food associated with merchant specialists, but I usually send GM's on the "journey" for cash instead. Do you get food (still) from a GM if settled as a "superspecialist?"

[NFIH]

There's something about specialists I don't understand and it's this: Barring using the caste system civic, I can't seem to get a city to run more than one or two specialists at a time. Sometimes I can, but I'm not sure under what circumstances the game is letting me do that.

So for example, I'll have a temple or a library and can assign one and two specialists, respectively--but not at the same time. That is, I can't run one priest specialist for the temple and two engineer specialists for the library at the same time. The game will remove one specialist from the other specialist category when I try and manipulate the +/- signs.

What am I doing wrong?

[Generaldoktor]

Only thing I can think of is you are exceeding your total allotment of allowed specialists when you try to stock both categories. Certain buildings allow you a fixed number of specialists, you cannot exceed the combined total, in any combination. The solution is to build more buildings and pay attention in the manual, Civopedia and/or strategy guide, which buildings allow what and then keep a running total of your total allowed.

[Blake]

Originally posted by NFIH
There's something about specialists I don't understand and it's this: Barring using the caste system civic, I can't seem to get a city to run more than one or two specialists at a time. Sometimes I can, but I'm not sure under what circumstances the game is letting me do that.

So for example, I'll have a temple or a library and can assign one and two specialists, respectively--but not at the same time. That is, I can't run one priest specialist for the temple and two engineer specialists for the library at the same time. The game will remove one specialist from the other specialist category when I try and manipulate the +/- signs.

What am I doing wrong?

In short, the "Shadow Governor" is being a big dork.

Easy way: Turn governor on (and set maximize buttons). Now just "Force" specialists (with the yellow border around the specialist), being able to force specialists is another major benefit of governor on.

With governor off:
If you want 4 specialists, assign 4 citizens (the 1 hammer guys). Then assign the specialists you want, it will change the citizens into the desired specialists.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Blake


In short, the "Shadow Governor" is being a big dork.

Easy way: Turn governor on (and set maximize buttons). Now just "Force" specialists (with the yellow border around the specialist), being able to force specialists is another major benefit of governor on.

With governor off:
If you want 4 specialists, assign 4 citizens (the 1 hammer guys). Then assign the specialists you want, it will change the citizens into the desired specialists.

Ah, so that's the solution. Thanks for that.

One thing I've started to notice is that when I capture AI cities they tend to be much more "specialized" than mine with lots of food surplus. They also have automation ON. I'm going to try playing with automation ON and seeing if it achieves the same thing.

[zhuren]

A short question on Specialists/Great People.

In the course of the game, the number of GP points required for a Great Person to be born rises gradually.
By which factors is this increase in GP Point requirement affected? I found that cities which had not produced any GP points in the AA need to gather a much higher amount of these later.

Also, deriving from this: Is it fair to say that the ancient age is the best time to spawn GPs because of the higher "rate"?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by zhuren
Also, deriving from this: Is it fair to say that the ancient age is the best time to spawn GPs because of the higher "rate"?

They are both cheaper and most powerful earlier in the game, but the opportunity cost of making them early is also higher. If I have Ankgor Wat and enough food then it's worth running priest specialists anyway, and the GPs are an added bonus.