Starting a game

[Yosho]

Yeah, the blue circles aren't biased towards hidden resources anymore.

However, I believe the starting location is. At least, the starting location always seems to have a few resources, sometimes some of them hidden at the start of the game.

[Metaliturtle]

my starting loc can be as biased as it needs to be

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Metaliturtle
my starting loc can be as biased as it needs to be

It sure can be!

From my experiences the game gives you the strongest possible start, taking all the variables (map kind and size, number of AIs etc) into consideration.

Imagine what it would be like if it was random!

[Urban Ranger]

I tend to settle on the spot, unless the settler is one away from a coast or a river.

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
To that point, here's a related question: Is there any evidence that the game puts you in a spot for a reason? Are those bright blue circles really great spots?

Those are generally decent sites, but you can do better on your own.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Metaliturtle
my starting loc can be as biased as it needs to be

4 bananas* once!


* Bananas are super resources on my box, just to keep in line with Poly

[padillah]

The blue circles don't know about hidden resources nor resources that are "in the black". I've tested this several times and they keep suggesting strange obtuse recommendations (some of my tests are in a thread on here but I deleted the pics that go with them).

As for the starting position, the map code does start by picking a random tile but then it makes sure that you are not too close to others and the tile has enough food for an OK start (IIRC it needs 6 or 8 food to be OK) otherwise it'll just flip the coin again. But it only tries a given number of times, then you are truely stuck with what you've got.

This is something I have not put into WorldPainter. It's as random, as it gets. Hmm, maybe I should.

Tom P.

[Azuarc]

Originally posted by padillah
The blue circles don't know about hidden resources nor resources that are "in the black". I've tested this several times and they keep suggesting strange obtuse recommendations (some of my tests are in a thread on here but I deleted the pics that go with them).

As for the starting position, the map code does start by picking a random tile but then it makes sure that you are not too close to others and the tile has enough food for an OK start (IIRC it needs 6 or 8 food to be OK) otherwise it'll just flip the coin again. But it only tries a given number of times, then you are truely stuck with what you've got.

This is something I have not put into WorldPainter. It's as random, as it gets. Hmm, maybe I should.

Tom P.

Have to disagree with this on multiple counts.

First, the blue circles must know about the "black" resources, because often I get a starting spot that looks completely meh -- but I'm lazy and found there anywhere. A moment later, due to the 3x3 culture radius, I can see everything in the fat cross, and there are some resources of value.

Also, I just played a game yesterday where *as soon as I pressed B*, I was introduced to the English, who were literally 3 spaces away from me in starting spot. If that isn't "too close", I dunno what is.


How, exactly, blue circles are picked, I'm not sure, but it does have HEAVY bearing on where (visible) resources are. I'll get suggestions that are stupidly close to my other cities just because there's resources (that are already being worked!) within range of the suggestion. It also is relative to nearby spaces -- oftentimes, the best space by my reckoning is one immediately between two other spots. The game will never highlight two consecutive tiles, though. Other times, it'll pick a tile just because nothing else nearby looks good at all, and that space is just a little less crappy.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Azuarc


Have to disagree with this on multiple counts.

First, the blue circles must know about the "black" resources, because often I get a starting spot that looks completely meh -- but I'm lazy and found there anywhere. A moment later, due to the 3x3 culture radius, I can see everything in the fat cross, and there are some resources of value.

Well, it is very difficult to test since I don't know what weights it gives to which resources. i.e. if there were a corn to the left, iron to the right, and uranium to the north which is a better site?

I can repost some tests (now that I have the laptop I can be in the living room and still pay Civ so my wife doesn't mind as much.) But they are hard to pin down as well since I think the "blue circles" are decided at a time I can't pin down. I remember, in my last test, I had several corn visible and nothing else on the map and it still would not move the circle.

Also, I just played a game yesterday where *as soon as I pressed B*, I was introduced to the English, who were literally 3 spaces away from me in starting spot. If that isn't "too close", I dunno what is.

And that's why I say there is a number of times it will try to place you somewhere but it will eventually give up and drop you wherever. That part is in python, I can try and find it if you want... unless I'm remembering something wrong... Hmm.

How, exactly, blue circles are picked, I'm not sure, but it does have HEAVY bearing on where (visible) resources are. I'll get suggestions that are stupidly close to my other cities just because there's resources (that are already being worked!) within range of the suggestion. It also is relative to nearby spaces -- oftentimes, the best space by my reckoning is one immediately between two other spots. The game will never highlight two consecutive tiles, though. Other times, it'll pick a tile just because nothing else nearby looks good at all, and that space is just a little less crappy.

I have no concrete idea either, I've done a couple of tests but they were done by flipping back and forth to WB so they may not have been as definitive as I would like. I've seen formulas for the "fitness" of a starting position and something says there's a formulaic manner for placing the circles, I just have not found it. (I'm also looking for definitive docs on the contents of the XML files, some of those settings are just bizarre.)

If it's important enough I can work up a set of valid tests to be run (with WorldPainter it should be much easier now).

Tom P.

[DrSpike]

Well, the tests referred to above seem to support Padillah's view.

[Arrian]

I play on normal speed, and the only time I will move (move enough to burn a turn) is to get on a plains hill (so max 1 turn). I'll often shift over one tile but still found in 4000bc.

-Arrian

[Rancidlunchmeat]

A month or so after Civ IV came out, people started running these tests on here.

I believe they created custom maps using all grassland, and then put resources in different areas based upon the starting position.

Some were within sight, some were within the fat cross but out of sight (initially) and some were resources that weren't available until a future tech was discovered and these were also placed within sight or in 'the fog'.

They then went into the game to see if the blue circles would be biased towards resources that weren't visable yet, and also resources that weren't available yet.

..they weren't.

I don't know the exact name of the thread, or else I'd find it and link it.

But there was extensive "testing" done when the game was first released.

[MrFun]

Didn't read the entire thread so if someone else already mentioned, please don't shoot me.


You can explore all you want without sacrificing any turns . . . . . .




save your game immediately after starting, then explore with your settler and other unit. Then reload the game when you know where you want to settle your first city.

[NTJedi]

I always first move my scout to determine if moving will benefit my settler. I would say about 40% of the time I move my settler on the first turn.

The computer ALWAYS builds at it's starting location.


==========

Originally posted by MrFun

save your game immediately after starting, then explore with your settler and other unit. Then reload the game when you know where you want to settle your first city.

That is called cheating... you might as well open the world editor. Now where's my gun !

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Azuarc


Have to disagree with this on multiple counts.

First, the blue circles must know about the "black" resources, because often I get a starting spot that looks completely meh -- but I'm lazy and found there anywhere. A moment later, due to the 3x3 culture radius, I can see everything in the fat cross, and there are some resources of value.

Like I said, the *starting spots* are biased towards better stuff, including stuff you can't see. However, the *blue circles* you see when you want to settle your other cities are not biased towards hidden resources. Big difference there.

[Urban Ranger]

Yup. The starting position is probably based on a bunch of things still in the FoW (but not something you can't see due to tech limitations AFAIK). However the blue circles aren't, not from what I saw.