Units that I miss

[dolf]

- Paratrooper
- Nucl. sub.
- Carrier based bomber
- sub/plane based missiles (Harpoon, Tomahawk etc)
- Modern surface warships (Aegis cruiser etc)
- anti sub planes (Orion, Viking, Choppers)

[JackRudd]

Paratroopers were a bit sucky, really. Because they were impossible to realiably defend against - you got, at most, a turn's warning of the things' attacking one of your cities.

(Cf the Nuke/Paradrop tactic that everybody loved in Civ2.)

[dolf]

I now use the nuke/marines tactic.

But still I think they should have been in there.
can't really recall how they worked in civ2.

they can be a vital defence assit.

[AshenPlanet]

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Paratroopers were an imbalance.

As for using them for defense, you can still do that.
If you build an airport in the city you want to defend, you can airlift 1 troop from every other city to defend that city.
In effect, every troop can be a "paratrooper" now for defense.

It's decent on offense as well, since you can bring many troops to a front line city right away if you rush build an airport there.
But that will cost to fast build an airport, and if it's a city you just took on a different continent, you'll have to wait for unrest to end.
Being more than 1 move away from the next city is another area where airports are not as ridiculously powerful as paratroopers were.

The expanded role of airports now make a separate paratrooper unit uneccessary and the airports themselves are more balanced than paratroopers were.

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[Quillan]

I never played Civ 2. However, a lot of the more modern units have been folded into their slightly older counterparts. The battleship represents all major capital ships. You do not have cruisers in the game. Destroyers represent all escort ships, and the fact that it can intercept aircraft and see submarines covers later technological improvements as well as early. Bombers are not carrier based; they're too large to land on them. In WWII bombers did fly off carriers once or twice, but never returned there; they flew on to land bases after the raid instead.

What I do miss is the faster movement of nuclear subs, the ability of artillery (including ship guns and cruise missles) to attack improvements in the near squares, and the easier and cheaper upgrading of obsolete units. I think some units should be very expensive to upgrade, like ships/planes/armor. However, going from riflemen to infantry? Give them different weapons and train them to shoot the new weapons.

[dolf]

Thought you can only lift 1 unit in the city with a airport (has to be there at start of turn) to 1 city (so not with 3 cities with airports all to the same city)

[Quillan]

You can only airlift a single unit out of a city per turn, and that city has to have an airport in it. A unit can only be airlifted if it has full movement points, so it has to start the turn in the city with the airport. On the receiving end, it's different. You can airlift into any of your own cities. If the city doesn't have an airport, you can only airlift a single unit per turn in. If it does have an airport, you can airlift more. I'm not certain if it's unlimited, but I've done as many as five in a single turn.

[dolf]

k, thanks



looks like everybody is agreeing on the nucl. sub

[Dis]

some of these units I'm sure will be in the expansion. They got to get us to fork over money for it for some reason. Even though some of these units should have been in the original game.

[Generaldoktor]

Dis

Whether the paratrooper was more unbalanced than in real life, I must question. Germans definitely shook Belgians up in World War II. Israeli's made some AirCav strikes in '67 and '73, I believe, with devastating effect. This is also a part of US doctrine, though we haven't picked on anybody our own size in recent years where it became an issue.

I find eliminating nuclear subs absurd; the 1914 model is hardly equivalent; and what about the payload? For that matter, didn't we have an air-launched payload at one time? (Cruise missle, plus nuke capability.) I liked cruisers, but of course I liked all the ship types in the Ancient Med mod. I just like to play with ships.

Or course this is a good way for me to win on higher levels too. AI just doesn't "get" WaterWorld!

Oh, btw, I liked Stealth Fighters too. But like the man said, wait to see what we get back in Warlords.

[AshenPlanet]

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Whether the paratrooper was more unbalanced than in real life, I must question. Germans...

Air drops are far more limited now with having to air drop into a town site which is a minimum distance from an enemy city.
They are restricted in real life too, air drops were only done to specific locations at a distance from enemy cities or installations.
No one ever air dropped military units directly next to an enemy city like you'd always do with the badly designed old paratrooper unit.

But, ALL troops can be used as paratroopers now, even those old crossbowmen you have hanging around.
Strapping on a backpack and jumping out of a plane isn't rocket science, and you could train any troop to do it.

I find eliminating nuclear subs absurd...

Nuclear subs are still here.
Civ. 4 subs now can be oil or nuclear powered.

As for the old launch abilities, they took out all ranged artillery attacks from all units except for fighters and bombers.
I assume that was done to ease their ai programming.
All non-air artillery units now damage other units only while attacking.

That was always the biggest learning curve.
Newbie players and computer ai always had great difficulty in using ranged artillery effectively.
Using it gave you a huge edge over computer ai in past games.

Now artillery does not operate at range except to reduce wall defense unless you have air units.
The computer still doesn't use fighters and bombers as well as it should, because it's hard to code that for the ai.
Since that ability is only air though, there are anti-air units and buildings that specifically reduce the threat of air power.
While the computer doesn't fathom using air power for devastating attack support as well as it could, it does make bunkers in all it's cities and sam units as soon as it's able to.

That ranged artillery ability in non-air units that was present in previous games will probably not be in the expansion either unless they vastly improve their ai coding.

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[Generaldoktor]

I question whether real airdrops were not conducted close to cities. Most airdrops were in WWII, they haven't been used much since the advent of helicopters. The U.S. is the big proponent of helicopters and uses them everywhere, including in cities for pinpoint application of force, both in repelling the North Vietnamese Tet Offensive in 1968 and in seizing Kuwaiti/Iraqi cities in the two Gulf campaigns. The German drops in the Low Countries in 1940 were close to Belgian/Dutch urban areas; how close in game terms brings up issues of game scale. The U.S. did drops all over Normandy and again in Holland (Market Garden) in 1944, frequently in rural areas, but close to some cities (Cherbourg, Caen, Arnhem, etc.) As for the Allies last drop in The Ruhr in 1945, I don't have access presently to the drop pattern, but the Ruhr is very densely urban, so in game scale, I think we would have to say they were "right next" to cities. The Russians did a number of large, poorly publicized drops in the period 1941-44; I'll have to go back to the notorious, but sometimes best (German) East Front historian Paul Carell or some airborne study to verify the date/locations, but cities were the usual objective for East Front offensives.

Civ4 uses nuclear fuel as an alternative for players who don't have oil, so they can have subs. The subs so-powered have no other special characteristics over the 1914 model. I continue to find this absurd. And yes, I would like other ranged combat to return; it was present in Civ3. Shortcuts to get the game out quick last fall, such as in"AI programming," are the basis for many criticisms I and others have made of Civ4.

[Feyd]

While it goes against other aspects (such as ground unit upgrading and especially air unit upgrading), the strength values of naval units have remained comprable throughout modern history. Destroyers were always best against subs, subs were always weaker than all other ships other than transports, Battleships were the most powerful but were trumped by aircraft, and so on and so on. So a 30 strength destroyer in 1914 is comprable in relative terms to a 30 strength destroyer in 2006. There is more movement (handled by tech advances such as refrigeration) and more tech, but on average they still are a little better than subs and would get beaten in a one on one fight vs. a battleship.

I'm not saying I like the lack of diversity in the naval ships, but it is much better I feel to drop a little power on the naval side in order to give the AI a chance so criticize all you want, but I'll take a little cutback in my diversity if it allows the AI to put up a paltry fight for the seas (as opposed to a pathetic one).

[Generaldoktor]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the 1914 tincan sub that the Germans started their reputation with is nothing compared to today's Ohio class nuclear and nuclear dispensing behemoths of the U.S. Navy. I think they should at the least get a speed advantage and be able to dispense nuclear payloads again. The Ohios are the capital ships of tomorrow. Aircraft carriers, which trumped battleships, have been trumped themselves by cruise missle delivery vehicles, including small fast boats as well as Aegis-type cruisers, which were a Civ3 mainstay, though only late in the game. These, btw, would also trump your battleship example.

Naval maneuver has been a big part of my strategy since back in the days of Civ2 and CTP1. The fact that the AI doesn't "get" it, I consider my little advantage to offset the cheats they get at the higher levels. (Bad trick I like; play on island worlds at the higher levels of difficulty I wouldn't touch otherwise. )

As I always say, "Play what you want, when you want to." But if "Warlords" does upgrade naval a little bit, I wouldn't be sorry. Regarding naval diversity, the "Ancient Med" mod for Civ3 added three new ship types for the ancient world and I loved it. (Ancient Med is also reportedly available for Civ4, but I haven't played that; I think it always suited better Civ3. ) If "Warlords" doesn't deliver, I might break my longstanding aversion to modding and try to mod an enhanced naval module for Civ.

[joncnunn]

Re: Units that I miss

Paratrooper replaced by:
Defensive: All (each airport can send one unit per turn and receive unlimited)
Offensive: None (unbalancing)

Nuclear Sub replaced by Sub (Sub can use either Oil or Uranium)

Carrier based bomber replaced by all aircraft. As far as I can tell, all air units may be based on a carrier

Missles : No replacement. Probably because AI is incompentant with them

Anti ship planes: Replaced by Fighters / Jet Fighters, which don't suffer the 50% pentally attacking ships that Bomber types do.

Chopters: Replaced by Gunships; and they are Tank killers. (In addition, Calvary now promote to them)

Originally posted by dolf
- Paratrooper
- Nucl. sub.
- Carrier based bomber
- sub/plane based missiles (Harpoon, Tomahawk etc)
- Modern surface warships (Aegis cruiser etc)
- anti sub planes (Orion, Viking, Choppers)