Walls, WTF?

[Generaldoktor]

I don't do threads often and haven't for awhile, but I really am starting to get confused on this subject, so I'm doing what will probably be a short one. Maybe I've played too many games of "Stronghold 2" or Civ3, but I kinda like the idea of walls. Gives a feeling of security.

But in general, we have the "culture defense" thing, which I don't fully understand. Then there's the gunpowder thing. And then there's another thread where the old grognards advise a newbie that field troops are more effective anyway. They frighten the AI and have mobility. All this seems to argue against building walls, ever. (Aside from the fact that they often take awhile and delay your Wonders and other improvements.)

Now we all know the forts suck in Civ4. Basic posited question, is there any reason, (besides historical thoroughness,) for Walls??

Subpoints:

1. If culture defense exists, but is lower than what it would be for walls, is it automatically walls for defense?

2. If culture is beat lower than walls, (catapaults or something,) do walls kick in? What if you start with culture defense and then finish walls, do you get revived defense (from walls?) What if walls get beat down, does culture kick in?

3. Does anybody (besides maybe me , ) feel that walls help with "raging Barbarians?"

4. Does anybody (besides maybe me , ) feel that walls are still useful after gunpowder because AI's (or even conceivably live MP's in a cash bind,) probably still have a lot of non-upgraded, non-gunpowder units?

5. Does anybody (besides maybe me , ) feel that the one culture point for castles is worth something, even after gunpowder surfaces?

Don't all beat feet all at once to answer on this fascinating topic!

[Yuufo]

I share your analysis on the low worthiness of walls.

In case of cultural wall lower than physical wall, the physical wall prevails. The larger defence value always prevails.

In old versions, I used a "trick" that perhaps doesn't work anymore. When a city with cultural protection got attacked by siege weapons, the defence bonus falling under a critical percentage, I built a wall and: + 50%
Another reason not to build useless walls!

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Yuufo

In old versions, I used a "trick" that perhaps doesn't work anymore. When a city with cultural protection got attacked by siege weapons, the defence bonus falling under a critical percentage, I built a wall and: + 50%
Another reason not to build useless walls!

Well it appears then, regarding my subquestion 2, that walls do kick in if built after culture defense is selected, where culture is beat down by external force, (i.e. catapault rocks!)

[axisworks]

The only times I'll build walls is:

1. If I'm getting attacked by barbarians or the nearest AI constantly in the early game

2. If I want that 1+ culture from the castle later in the game.

Otherwise, gunpowder units come too fast and I'm usually trying to stay a hair ahead of the AI in techs, so I don't want to waste my time building it when there are so many other more worthwhile buildings to build.

[Thrar]

The actual defense value is culture only against gunpowder units and the like (cavalry, cannons, armor). Against the rest, whichever value is higher is what's used. +25% from Chichen Itza can be applied to both.

If physical defenses are present, both those and the cultural ones get reduced by bombardment, simultaneously. E.g. a cannon (even though it ignores walls when attacking) will reduce both culture and walls by 15% of their total defense with each hit.

[QuixotesGhost]

Sometimes I'll whip to get walls up on an enemy city I've just captured. I mainly use them to defend against counterattacks. I don't use them to defend my home turf, culture normally surpasses it fairly quickly and they do nothing about pillagers.

[CerberusIV]

The bit I have never been clear about with walls is what exactly counts as a gunpowder unit. The game has different categories of units which show up as such in the military advisor and the gunpowder ones are clear. In that screen cannon are listed as siege units, not gunpowder. So do they ignore walls or not? Same question for armour and helicopter units later in the game. They should surely ignore walls but do they as they aren't listed as gunpowder units?

EDIT: I went into the Worldbuilder to try and answer my own question and ended up more confused. I picked a walled city on a hill and checked the combat odds with a variety of attacking units. Once I had bombarded the cultural defence down to zero the walls didn't show up at all on the combat odds. All the factors that showed were the same for gunpowder and non-gumpowder units.

[Blake]

Originally posted by QuixotesGhost
Sometimes I'll whip to get walls up on an enemy city I've just captured.

That is a good idea .

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Blake

That is a good idea .

I agree - this is about the only time I really build walls, when I have liberated a city and know that I will be facing a strong attempt to get it back.

If going for a cultural victory I will also build them in my 3 culture city, to get the +1 from castles. Every bit helps.

[Urban Ranger]

Walls are cheap, and you can get it up much faster than you can with culture defense.

I agree that, if walls can't be brought down simultaneously with culture defense, they will be much more useful. IoW, if they double the time an enemy needed to reduce your defenses, they will be great.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Walls are cheap, and you can get it up much faster than you can with culture defense.

I agree that, if walls can't be brought down simultaneously with culture defense, they will be much more useful. IoW, if they double the time an enemy needed to reduce your defenses, they will be great.

I agree.....

but they don't......

[Eomer]

Well, truthfully I don't pay attention to the culture defense given by walls. But, I do tend to build them, generally in my more populated and powerful cities. Main reason: I like the idea of walls.
Or of course, I'll build them on cities near another AI, whether they are more of a friend or foe.

[rah]

I've decided that you should never let them attack you in your homeland, just in newly conquered cities. So walls and city defense promotions are worthless except for a couple to put in that newly conquered city. I want all my units to be aggressive to attack those SODs before they pillage my empire. It seems to work out better.

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Walls are cheap, and you can get it up much faster than you can with culture defense.

Comparatively speaking cheap, compared to a whole bunch of cultural improvements, but you were going to build those anyway, right? Whereas with walls, you only get the defensive value, before culture overtakes it, other than the one point later if you go on to a castle. Walls are needed quite commonly, if at all, in the early game too, where they represent a major expense and diversion for the then-small production from limited sites.

I said at the beginning I like them, but feel like Eomer, I like them because I like the idea of them. In strict analysis (who is it that said only build what you need and know why you build it--some great mind here at Poly , ) it seems like they are diverting you/me or whoever builds them from more critical stuff, without a real major return, unless its a real "un patrie endanger" type of thing. (Pardon my French ) I wish it weren't so; powerful castle-like cities really fit my conception of Empire.

It'd be nice if they'd beef up the walls for "Warlords," but I suppose there are game balance issues. I mentioned on another thread that the French and some of their imitators in Louis XIV's day made a real art of fortification (this was even post-gunpowder , but pre-rifled cannon,) as did the Shogun-era Japanese. This right now is poorly reflected in the game. Louis' avatar of fortification was a Marshal Vauban, who wrote on the subject and also built numerous fortresses and fortified many cities in a long life and also helped Louis in his various campaigns knock other people's down. Again, Civ4 misses this slice of history. (Need I remind that the actual forts suck in this game too.)

This whole culture defense thing is rather radical. Some cities, by reputation, did resist conquering. Paris in World War II and Moscow for both Hitler and Napoleon might be examples, though Boney did take it for a time after the Russians, in essence, gutted their own "culture defense." But high culture sure didn't keep the Vandals out of Rome in 455 or the Turks out of Constantinople in 1453. I think I'd almost like it if the subject were revisited and walls were put back doing what they are supposed to and culture something else entirely.

[Arrian]

I only bother with walls if I have stone hooked up (halves the build cost) and have a city that feels particularly exposed (say it borders an unfriendly AI that I know has a bunch of mounted units that could hit the city immediately upon a declaration of war).

-Arrian