Walls, WTF?

[Nugog]

Originally posted by fani
Well...the way i visualise this is....
"Oh look...that nasty catapult destroyed our lovely statues and monuments...the library that contained all those wonderful books that contained our cultural achievements and records of ancient history...our city is now a bunch of rubble...NOW LETS BREAK THIS SIEGE AND GO GET THEIR CITIES"

Yeah. Or is it more like -

our city is now a bunch of rubble...now lets watch our depleted troops get slaughtered, and then capitulate to Lord Nugog's benevolent rule! We never liked our original culture anyway..........

[drsparnum]

In the Civil War, the citizens of Vicksburgh were initially pretty gung-ho about their ability to resist the Union army's seige. After several months of living in holes in the ground and running out of food, paper and clothing, along with the stink of dead bodies in the Mississippi heat, they (like anyone) suffered a huge reduction in their willingness to fight. This is my interpertation of how siege units lower cultural defense.

[Generaldoktor]

On the other hand, there were those Germans and Japanese who were bombed into rubble in WWII. The Allied Strategic Bombing Survey pretty much concluded their resolve held firm, or increased. Ditto for Churchill's "Never Give In" crowd over in Britain. The North Vietnamese were impervious to heavy U.S. bombing in the years 1968-72 and to a great extent their shelling too.

On the third hand, when they came back through the South Vietnamese cities in 1975, the Southerners' defenses, built with extensive foreign aid, didn't count for squat!

A portent for the future (in Baghdad?)

Sometimes "resolve" is just that, "resolve."

[Blaupanzer]

Cities within reach of the borders of aggressive civs (not currently being destroyed by you) in the pre-gunpowder era need walls. Otherwise, the AI gets to demonstrate its latest military advances by slaughtering your troops at the edge of the empire. Castles are the little cultural bonus available wherever walls were built. I almost always build castles after gunpowder units are in full vogue, just to get the culture.

[Generaldoktor]

Makes good sense to me and that's the way I'm handling it.

One thing we haven't talked about on this "fortified" thread, (is that like fortified bread?? ) is the role, if any that is sensible for you and Chichen Itza.

Here's this wonderful pile of stone that supposedly gives all your city walls, or cultural defense, +25% everywhere in your empire. Is this puppy worth it, assuming your not just a suffering from Wonder-mania or need a quick culture fix?? (My I miss Great Wall. Ooh, mustn't prejudice other opinions! )

Inquiring minds want to know. I've built the thing about twice, (though considered it more often; AI like it too.) At least one of those times, it was mid-game when walls were "declining" and was probably more for culture. Other opinions?

[Urban Ranger]

I guess the answer is "it depends."

If you are more of a builder the +25% defense is worth it, esp. if you have a nice number of cities. I can't remember if that 25% can't be destroyed by seige. If so it's definitely worth it.

OTOH, if you are a warmonger, you may still want to build it so that nobody else could get it, thus giving you extra trouble.

I always try to build it if I get stone. Doubly so if I am also industrious.

[Nugog]

I always try and build Chichen Itza, mainly because I don't want my opponents to have it!

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I guess the answer is "it depends."

If you are more of a builder the +25% defense is worth it, esp. if you have a nice number of cities. I can't remember if that 25% can't be destroyed by seige. If so it's definitely worth it.

Eh...I'm pretty sure the defense bonus can be leveled by siege stuff; at least, i've never seen it happen where I couldn't lower a city's defense to zero, and I'm pretty sure I've faced opponents with the chicken izra.

It's one of those things where the odds of it being useful are not very high, and when you do the payoff's not big anyway. First you have to be attacked by a stronger force and fight a defensive war during the period between building the wonder and the development of gunpowder. If that happens, then in order to make it worthwhile, you have to be in a position where it's not worthwhile to try to defend your improvements (at least of your border cities) and instead just want to defend the cities. If you are in that position, though, the wonder still might not help you, unless you could either destroy the invading force or get enough forces to the city to save it before your enemy finishes bombarding your defences down to zero; basically, even in the uncommon situation where the wonder would help, it still either only buys you a few extra turns (if he uses siege weapons, which the AI basically always does) or a somewhat better defensive kill ratio (if he dosn't for some reason destroy that last 25% defense before attacking). Most of the time, either you won't need it, or if you do need it it's probably not enough to save you.

I've never built it. Most of the time, in most situations, you're probably better off just using the hammers to build more millitary units, and I think that's true even if you're a builder who's only interested in detering warfare and/or being prepared to fight a defensive war if needed. Units are just more flexable and useful in more situations; the wonder's only useful in certain limited situations, and even when it's useful it's still not that powerful.

[fani]

Chicken ninja = expensive wonder with crappy properties

[Generaldoktor]

Well I guess you told us how you really feel, guys.

Chichen Itza =

BTW, I'm not sticking up for the thing; and as I said, where I have built it it's mostly for the culture, but I checked the published strategy guide and that said that the bonus is cumulative to culture or walls. So evidently, people like Yosho that have attacked against it, are "leveling" that bonus along with all others.

Now this is pre-patches; I don't know if they've monkeyed with this with the various patches.

I thought I'd mention Chichen Itza as it is part of the overall discussion of walls and city defense. If anybody else wants to chime in more on Chichen Itza, feel free; or on walls in general, feel free. This thread has gone on longer and got a lot of good ideas, to a greater extent than I ever imagined when I threw it out there; but the more, the merrier!

[zeace]

I think Chichen Itza's best trait is that you get it immediately when you conquer a city. I love declaring war by taking my opponents city on a hill with a river on their side of it. Take the city and then move some defensive units in. As the counter attack trickles in, let them pound themselves on your defenses while you heal. The 25% definately helps in this case.

Rinse and repeat until the counter attacks become feeble...

Does anyone know if the 25% counts before the city even leaves anarchy?

[Urban Ranger]

I reckon it will also help with a new city. You know, one that you just shoved in the face of an angry opponent...

[QuixotesGhost]

I agree, the Chicken is great for newly conqured cities. Instant 25% as soon as you move in. That's the main reason I would ever build it.

[DrSpike]

Yeah, walls are near pointless. However, given how easy it is to defend in this game buffing them isn't really an option unless in conjunction with other changes. I'd say nerfing the cultural defence and making it so that you could get back (roughly, it wouldn't be possible to make exact) to the situation we have now with walls would be quite reasonable

[Generaldoktor]

Don Quixote: We are talking about Chichen, not Chicken, right? Chicken is good for barbecue. Sorry.

DrSpike: I think the general consensus is with you; though in non-tournament games I'll probably keep building the stoney things, (remember I was a fan of that other game, "Stronghold.") Nerfing culture defense would make sense to me, as I never understood it anyway, (yeah, Paris held out in 1870 and Leningrad in 1941 and Troy in ???, but was that really culture??) Would be a big change just for an expansion like "Warlords" though, don't know if the design team has the "stones" for it, (no pun intended.)