How to Get Great Generals Revealed? Plus more info on Vassal States!

[Jaybe]

All this conjecture is lame! However ...

If I am top dog in a major way, will ALL the minor AI become my vassals? Could I win the whole game through this?

If so, I definitely would have to move up a difficulty level.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by Jaybe
All this conjecture is lame!

That makes me feel really bad.

[Forwarn45]

Conjecture is *inaudible* fun.

[axisworks]

Conjecture is *inaudible* fun.

[MasterDave]

My favorite aspect of the Vassal state thing is that their land and population count towards the domination victory. That means that that the boring end-game grind where you are rolling people over to get that last 15-20% of the land area you need will be reduced. That in itself is a huge benefit to me and really helps improve the end-game pacing, which tends to drag on larger maps.

I also find the dynamics of keeping a vassal state subservient to be interesting to conjecture on.

[MasterDave]

Originally posted by Jaybe
All this conjecture is lame!

Forum traffic on most game fan websites is 90% based on conjecture, especially before a particular game is released. In the cases of most computer games, the anticipation before the game comes out is the most interesting part of the game's lifecycle (since soooo many highly-anticipated games are disappointments).

[Smellycowsquid]

[axisworks]

I heard from some guy that the new expansion pack will let you hack into the Pentagon and control jets and tanks in real life! It will also give you the option of getting a year's supple of free bananas if you play the game long enough.

[zeace]

Does anyone know (or care to conject) where you great generals will appear? Is it at the site of the battle that pushed you over the GGP limit? Is it in the nearest city?

If it's at the battle, it will require timing your battles so that your main attack force generates the general. You'd hate to have some clean-up horse archer barely take out a damaged knight and then have the general appear there. He'd be a dead target.

On the other hand, if the general doesn't appear near your army it'll make invading foreign lands harder. You'll want to get the GG before you leave, or after you've taken a city.

Ideally I think the GG would appear in a safe spot in a nearby unit stack or city. Of course defining safe spot is the trick...

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by MasterDave
Forum traffic on most game fan websites areis 90% based on conjecture, especially before a particular game is released. In the cases of most computer games, the anticipation before the game comes out is the most interesting part of the game's lifecycle (since soooo many highly-anticipated games are disappointments).

If one were to do a history of my posts, you would see that pre-game-release conjecture is minimal (or less). During such times, even my READING of posts leans towards "real" information, not all that dribble!

Look, these are my PERSONAL tastes; I respect others' tastes being different, just as I expect (and usually receive) respect for MY differences!

(Yes MasterDave, I know you were not attacking me or my tastes)

[Smellycowsquid]

Originally posted by axisworks
It will also give you the option of getting a year's supple of free bananas if you play the game long enough.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by Jaybe

If one were to do a history of my posts, you would see that pre-game-release conjecture is minimal (or less). During such times, even my READING of posts leans towards "real" information, not all that dribble!

Look, these are my PERSONAL tastes; I respect others' tastes being different, just as I expect (and usually receive) respect for MY differences!

(Yes MasterDave, I know you were not attacking me or my tastes)

If you don't like reading conjecture about up-coming features then DON'T READ IT.

Cheese-whiz!

La la la la la la!

[axisworks]

I hear the expansion comes with a free can of cheese whiz...

[patcon]

Re: How to Get Great Generals Revealed? Plus more info on Vassal States!

Originally posted by monkspider
Also interesting was his description of vassal states.

"You might demand that they become your vassal or you might be doing so well that they beg to become your vassal. At that point you share research, you share technologies, their land counts as your land for domination victories, things like that. But you also share *inaudible*. But the thing is it's a set period of time like a peace treaty so their's a possibility that at the end of that period they could decide that they've been building back up so you could find that they're back at war with you. "

I hope the word "share" is being misinterpreted by the people who posted in response to this. In order to be a true vassal-master relationship the "sharing" should be a one-way street. In this context "sharing" with a vassal state should mean, "What's mine is mine; what's yours is mine, except for possibly a small portion which I decide to let you keep just to keep you from squirming too much and possibly slipping out from under my thumb.

"Sharing research" should mean that the master gets the vassal's beakers, or at least the lion's share, the master would direct which techs the vassal would investigate for itself and this would be limited to techs the vassal could investigate on its own.

"Sharing commerce" should mean that the master gets the vassal's gold, or at least the lion's share. The master would also set the vassal's economy sliders, independently of the master's economy. Any vassal culture allowed by the master would be retained by the vassal.

"Sharing technologies" should mean that the vassal tells the master everything he knows, not the other way around, although the master could choose to gift techs to the vassal.

"Sharing units" should mean that the vassal's units are drafted into the master's military, except for a token "home guard force" of say 2 mid-level units garrisoned in each of the vassal's cities.

"Sharing production" should mean that the master tells the vassal what to build, but this would be limited to what the vassal could build with its available knowledge.

"Sharing resources" should mean that both master and vassal get the benefit of any resources controlled by either, as there's no reason not to share.

"Sharing civics and religion" should mean that the vassal adopts the civic and religion of the master.

"Sharing traits" should mean that the vassal civ gives up (at least temporarily) its own traits and follows the traits of the master.

The concept of a vassal state rebelling and saying, "Please remove your boot from our neck," sounds very much like the early Civ concept of the civil war. I think it should work like this.
After a set period (like a peace treaty) the vassal would evaluate its status and decide whether remaining a vassal is still in its best interests.
Factors to consider would be:
(1) the amount (%) of research the vassal was allowed to use for its own progress
(2) the amount (%) of commerce the vassal was allowed to keep
(3) the amount of culture the vassal was allowed to generate (this could be an "either too little or too much is bad" situation)
(4) how much knowledge the master has gifted to the vassal
(5) whether the vassal civ was inclined for or against the civic it was forced to adopt (negative attitude should diminish over time)
(6) whether the vassal civ was forced to change its state religion to a new state religion (negative attitude should diminish over time)
(7) whether the vassal civ was forced to adopt new traits (negative attitude should diminish over time and the original trait might even be forgotten)
(8) the general happiness and health of the vassal citizens
(9) the military strength of the master compared to the home guard forces, perhaps with some consideration of location of the master forces
(10) attitude toward master of other civs which could offer assistance in a vassal's rebellion (allow secret negotiations to determine "Would you help me rebel?")

I'll have to discuss what happens when a vassal rebels later, as it is very late and I must get up early tomorrow.

[padillah]

Re: How to Get Great Generals Revealed? Plus more info on Vassal States!

Originally posted by monkspider
Also interesting was his description of vassal states.

"You might demand that they become your vassal or you might be doing so well that they beg to become your vassal.
...
But the thing is it's a set period of time like a peace treaty so their's a possibility that at the end of that period they could decide that they've been building back up so you could find that they're back at war with you. "

I knew it!

In this other thread I suggested this would be something to work your way out of.

I'm willing to bet it takes three weeks before someone finds an exploit where being in a vassel state and buiding is viable.

What about units like settlers? What about amassing an army? Will I still be able to create units? How much of what I do is going to be controlled by the AI? Sounds like this could be a builders gift: Meet some aggr AI and offer to be their vassel. Then you can continue to build while the "Master" protects you. When you've had enough, build a few units and extricate yourself.

Since I don't actually know what I'm talking about, it's a little thin but I'm looking forward to working out the specifics.

Tom P.