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A drawback of grouping workers?

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  • #16
    There's another reason not to group workers, if you can avoid it and still preserve your sanity. Movement and roads. If you group your workers and they move onto a square that has a forest or a hill, they cannot do anything else on their turn. However, if you move one worker there to build a road, then other workers can join that worker and build an improvement without having to stop just after moving to the square.

    Perhaps a tedious example will help?

    You have 3 workers all on the same square. Above them are 3 squares you want to improve, one NW, one straight N and one NE. The NW one is currently a forested grassland you want to turn into a farm. The N one is currently a forested hill you want to turn into a mine. The NE one is currently a forested grassland you want to cottage. A road takes 6 turns to build at the speed you've selected, and chopping some forest takes 6 turns too. A farm takes 6 as well, a cottage 9 and a mine 12. I'm just making those numbers up, and I'd prefer the real ones but I'm at work. Anyway, they help because they remove all fractions.

    Lets say you group your workers.
    Turn 1, all workers move NW.
    T2-3 all workers chop.
    T4-5 all workers build a road.
    T6-7: all workers build the farm.
    T8: All workers move one square East to the hill.
    T9-10: all workers chop.
    T11-13: All workers build a cottage.
    T14-15: All workers build a road.
    T16: All workers move one square East.
    T17-18: All workers chop down forest.
    T19-20: All workers build road.
    T21-24: All workers build mine.

    Compare that to workers who operate individually.

    T1: Worker1 moves NW to start farm square. Worker2 moves N to start Mine square. Worker3 moves NE to start cottage square.
    T2-7: All workers chop down their forests individually.
    T8-13: All workers build roads.

    Now let's continue on a worker by worker basis.
    Worker 1: Builds farm from turns 14-19, then moves one square east to help finish the mine*.
    Worker 2: Build cottage from turns 14-22.
    Worker 3: Builds mine from turns 14-19 alone. From then on he gets help from worker one, and the pair complete the mine on turn 22.

    So what happened? These workers operating alone complete these 3 squares of work 2 turns earlier. Why? Because they each only lost one turn due to movement (turn 1) instead of each losing the turn to movement for all 3 movements. Granted this layout really highlights the movement benefits of keeping workers seperate. If your workers could move and start building all in one turn even if there isn't a road there's no gain at all. So if all the ground was hillless and forestless, then you could clump your workers at almost no loss. My method also presumes you'll actually road every square your workers improve, but I routinely do that.

    There is some other loss to this method however. If you have your workers move in clumps, in this example, the farm would be done at turn 7, instead of turn 19, when they move seperate. So your city would be able to use that farm for 12 extra turns, and that's an advantage that is worth considering. However, the numbers in my example don't consider the loss of worker time spent on fractions of turns discussed already (when a worker in the group twiddles his thumbs because only some of the workers in the group are needed to finish an improvement), since we used three workers and improvements all taking multiples of 3 in turns to complete. So that is a loss not considered here. Furthermore, when you've got workers in sufficient numbers that your just moving clumps around you might be building improvements faster than the population grows. If your improving squares that aren't being worked yet, getting that farm on turn 19 instead of earlier isn't a big deal at all. Getting that farm earlier only matters if your city has the population to work that farm.

    Basically, clumping gives you earlier improvements and less micromanagement. However, it decreases worker efficiency (both from a movement perspective, and from a perspective of partial turns, as discussed above.




    *I would actually keep my workers sepearte and send worker 1 to a completely different square, but for the purpose of this example I wanted to only discuss 3 total squares.
    Last edited by drsparnum; May 22, 2006, 12:01.

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    • #17
      I think I understand you drsparnum, but if I do, then regrouping multiple times within turns should eliminate a lot of fractional loss, i.e. when the project is done, click on the stack, er clump, that finished it and if any workers are showing green or yellow, regroup them using the "same type group" key on the interface and move them to something else. (Sometimes just that move will finish them off for the turn, but at least they don't have to expend the movement next turn, along with the next project.)

      I am probably doing what you are suggesting anyway, in rough terrain, but a lot of worker projects are on plains/grassland, which indeed does not require as much effort now that workers have a "2" movement rate in Civ4.

      Orky's right about Marathon being longer on worker production, along with other things. I these days always play on Marathon too. But, other than when starting out, I seem to quickly accumulate massive amounts of workers (can't stand to wait for anything , ) so I'm still doing multiple projects per turn often, even with increased finish times.)
      You will soon feel the wrath of my myriad swordsmen!

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      • #18
        thanks for the worker insight drsparnum
        anti steam and proud of it

        CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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        • #19
          drsparnum's method isn't quite optimum. Using his work-time figures, it seems to me that the quickest way to finish the three jobs is as follows:-
          Turns 1 to 13 - individual move/chop/road, as above.
          Turn 14 - One worker starts on the farm. Move another to join him: there are now 2 workers on the farm site. The third begins the mine.
          Turns 15 & 16 - complete the farm, carry on with the mine.
          Turn 17 - the two workers from the farm move to the cottage site and begin work there. Mining continues.
          Turns 18 & 19 - carry on.
          Turn 20 - the mine worker joins the others and completes the cottage with them.
          Turns 21 & 22 - all three workers got to the mine site and finish the work.

          The advantage over drspamum's scheme is that the farm and cottage are completed earlier. But it's a lot of micromanagement, and both farm and cottage take longer than keeping the workers in one group, which takes longer only for the mine or whichever improvement is given lowest priority.

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          • #20
            I'll usually only group them when i've captured too many to keep me sane moving them individually. I'll group them in two's to road three's to chop and other multiples for certain tasks. Occasionally you have waste when roading a desert or such, but I want to spend my time playing, not micro managing. In the early game I'll take the time when time is critical, but not in the mid to late game.
            It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
            RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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            • #21
              Grouping works is

              good if you don't like micromanagement or automation.
              bad if you like to optimise every single moment of the game.

              That's all there is to it.
              www.neo-geo.com

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              • #22
                I've always found that doubling my workers is about as valid a group as I can make. The first worker might take 6 turns, but with two workers it is invariably half that. There are very few instances where with a double group you have an unspent worker. The only time it happens is when you put two of your groups together to complete a particularly long project (NOTE: adding a third worker rarely impacts a project and adding a fourth might only take one turn off [not half like adding a second]).

                Maybe this is just Marathon speed, but making worker groups of two workers always works better than single workers in my experience.
                "The Chuck Norris military unit was not used in the game Civilization 4, because a single Chuck Norris could defeat the entire combined nations of the world in one turn."

                Feyd

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                • #23
                  Methinks yer forgetting something.

                  The benefits of getting an improvement faster, can sometimes be worth the wastage of worker overall speed.

                  I think having 2 workers together can really boost things around a single city.

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                  • #24
                    Recently I've started to queue worker actions (Hold shift while giving orders) to relieve my worker micromanagement headaches (I just can't get myself to auto workers). I always set up a vision in my head for how I want to set up my cities, so I simply give my workers long task lists and when they're done, I give them more.

                    It may not actually be faster, but it sure seems so.

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                    • #25
                      My problem is I've gotten even more picky about the improvements around my cities lately. I count up forests, I've gotta lay out cottages and mines. Sometimes there are square I know I'll want to farm but I don't have civil service so I cannot chain irrigation. Then I suddenly get calendar or the ability to make windmills and I gotta go back. Ugh.

                      It is out of control now, and I think one day I'm going to crack and automate them. Either that, or I'll need to pursue treatment for OCD a few months from now.

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                      • #26
                        Janster both me and Bushface mentioned the caveat that you will get the improvements around your city more slowly and that matters as long as you've got the population to work those squares.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by drsparnum
                          My problem is I've gotten even more picky about the improvements around my cities lately. I count up forests, I've gotta lay out cottages and mines. Sometimes there are square I know I'll want to farm but I don't have civil service so I cannot chain irrigation. Then I suddenly get calendar or the ability to make windmills and I gotta go back. Ugh.

                          It is out of control now, and I think one day I'm going to crack and automate them. Either that, or I'll need to pursue treatment for OCD a few months from now.
                          Who says micromanagers are made, not born?
                          You will soon feel the wrath of my myriad swordsmen!

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                          • #28
                            Seriously, how many workers do you have in most games of Civ4? Call that micro? In my day.............

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                            • #29
                              I don't know if you're asking DP or me, or everybody, but I have been playing a lot on Noble or one level lower (Warlord?) because I don't like AI cheats but do like big maps, raging barbs and marathon. I've been ending up with a lot of workers by midgame; some captured (including from barbs, around their cities, when they build them,) some just churned out in times of peace so I can get the cottages and roads up quick and prospect the hills for minerals, (the mines don't hurt even if I don't score any.) I'd say by midgame, I have 12-18 and in rare cases as many as two dozen. I do like them; and as I said earlier in this thread, I tend to use them in big stacks and then just regroup the unspent labor over and over to finish 2-3 projects per turn. When an area is completed, I move them someplace else, unless there's a war, cash or wonder priority that requires splitting them into multiple areas. But that's just me. Not sure that would really work on higher levels.
                              You will soon feel the wrath of my myriad swordsmen!

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                              • #30
                                Sorry, it was to the OP.

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