Argh! What do I do?!?

[Jaybe]

The other way is to zoom in as close as possible on the strategic map and see what the city shows.

Flying Camera mode works very nicely for this (toggle Ctrl-Alt-F).
Assumes you haven't turned it off in the .ini file and that your computer can handle it.

[Bobby Chicken]

This whole article is making me very wishful. I wish I could be concerned when my millitary was "only" 4th of 8. I wish I could get by with 2 cities. But anyway, a few questions for you. Do you go worker first? Then build warrior and wonders until your city reaches a fairly productive size? Then spam settlers? It sounds like the answer is no. Try it. Works for me on emperor. Works for a seven year old on chieften. Will work for you on any level. If you have five or six cites at arround year 1 on levels below prince and are working all improved tiles, you're going to win. Also, don't worry about millitary quanity. Quality all the way. My seven year old brother charges off straight to war elephants, then goes immediately to granadiers. Weird, but guess what. The quality millitary does the job on your level. Hope I've helped, but maybe I've just made you mad and frustrated. Sorry if I did.

[Palpster]

Interesting reading. There's something I don't get though. when you're military power is fourth in the world, why'd you want to war three (I think it was three) rival civs?? Seems a sure way to get into trouble.

Anyways, let us know how the war with Alex went and I'd love to see one or more screensshots of your game(world) as well.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Palpster
Interesting reading. There's something I don't get though. when you're military power is fourth in the world, why'd you want to war three (I think it was three) rival civs?? Seems a sure way to get into trouble.

Anyways, let us know how the war with Alex went and I'd love to see one or more screensshots of your game(world) as well.

I'd love to but (you're gonna like this) I had to give the laptop back.

I was playing this on my new laptop and doing OK but after losing my job and things getgting tight I had to return the laptop in defference to the money.

Now, I've got a good job I think I'm going to be able to keep so I saved up and got the laptop back. It's not the same, obviously, but I like it better and I don't have to worry about loosing it again.

The upshot of which is, I lost this particular game.

I plan on starting a game and posting it here so I can get some tips on what I do wrong but the holidays got in my way (amazing how much stuff I had to do whith 4 days off, makes me want to stay at work).

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Bobby Chicken
This whole article is making me very wishful. I wish I could be concerned when my millitary was "only" 4th of 8. I wish I could get by with 2 cities.

I was still getting killed after a while. I don't know what my problem is, that's why I'm gonna start at the begining and keep a list of actions I do each turn. Then post here so I can get help. I've never beaten the game on any level.

But anyway, a few questions for you. Do you go worker first? Then build warrior and wonders until your city reaches a fairly productive size? Then spam settlers? It sounds like the answer is no.

You're right, no I don't. I usually don't have anything for a worker to do so they just sit, I think it's kind of a waste, but then again I've never beaten the game so I must be doing something wrong.

Try it. Works for me on emperor. Works for a seven year old on chieften. Will work for you on any level. If you have five or six cites at arround year 1 on levels below prince and are working all improved tiles, you're going to win. Also, don't worry about millitary quanity. Quality all the way. My seven year old brother charges off straight to war elephants, then goes immediately to granadiers. Weird, but guess what. The quality millitary does the job on your level. Hope I've helped, but maybe I've just made you mad and frustrated. Sorry if I did.

Nah, I'm not mad. How can I get mad when you're right, I'm doing something wrong and can't figure it out.

Well, here's to the step-by-step.

Thanks for the help,

Tom P.

[Swiss Pauli]

Re: Argh! What do I do?!?

I'll try to give some advice about the way I learnt the game. At home, I've got an extract from one of Vel's guides that was my key resource up to Prince, which I might post up later.

Originally posted by padillah
I'm Saladin, on Warlord (hey, I suck at this game) Pangea, 8 civs.

Pangea is more of a bustin' heads type map than one for a peaceful builder. I stuck with standard settings and, from CIV3, chose Rome for Praets and Organized.

It's 1360BC, I've got two cities (one from a popped settler ).

I've got Wheel, Agr, Myst, Minig, Med (got Buddhism), Poly (lost Hinduism), Mass, Monotheism (got Juaism), BW, and I'm one turn away from Pottery.

Where are you trying to get to here? You don't need multiple religions: they're nice to have but not needed. How do you want to win? Culture, Spaceship, Domination? Each favours a different research approach. I chose Spaceship - it requires good research and decent (late game) production. In order to have the best chance of having Aluminum in my borders, I also want to have a large Empire.

I've got Stonehenge and I'm 47 turns away from Pyr. and 76 away from Parth.

What do you want out of these Wonders? Maybe lots of Axemen would be a better choice? My early strategy with Rome was to get Pottery to unlock Granary and Cottages, a Food tech (dependent on which food special was at hand), Writing, Bronze, and Iron. I avoided Wonders and Religions because I wanted to learn the basics before adding special touches to my game.

With two or three cities built, I'd then get a bunch of Praets together and go to war to take attractive-looking cities and look - eventually - to dominate/completely control my island. It didn't work every time - sometimes I'd bite of more than I chew - but even in defeat I'd learn something (when not to attack, don't ignore Axemen even if you have Praets, when to expand). As I went on, I'd add selected ancient wonders (most often Oracle and Great Library), used Pop-rushing more (and more, and more), play different Civs, etc.

Hope this helps in some way. Basically, I think you need to plan more: I didn't write plans down at first, but it definitely helped when I did so.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Quillan
Not only that, but they rarely seem willing to part with any city of significance. I've been able to get them to give up one of their weakest cities, but almost never the major ones.

The AI also seems more willing to give you cities if a fair part of the population of the cities are of your culture. It's possible to get him to part with a border city he took from you last war, even if all you do in this war is fight a good defensive war and kill a lot more of his guys then he kills of yours, and that can be quite useful.

But, yeah, I've never seen him give away one of his major cities; of course, I would never give the AI one of my major cities either, so that seems fair.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Yosho
But, yeah, I've never seen him give away one of his major cities; of course, I would never give the AI one of my major cities either, so that seems fair.

Not even if you saw him poised to take two of your cities?

Tom P.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by padillah


Not even if you saw him poised to take two of your cities?

Tom P.

Well, I have given the AI cities to make peace when he looked like he was going to take it anyway, sure. But I think if you're in a position where you have to give the AI one of your three or four biggest and best cities, you've probably already lost.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Yosho


Well, I have given the AI cities to make peace when he looked like he was going to take it anyway, sure. But I think if you're in a position where you have to give the AI one of your three or four biggest and best cities, you've probably already lost.

And that's my point, try convincing the AI of that.

Tom P.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by padillah


And that's my point, try convincing the AI of that.

Tom P.

My point, though, is that I never give away one of my major cities, becuase if you give one of your major cities to the AI, you basically almost certaly lose; I don't imagine there's any way to come back from being that far behind and then losing one of your biggest cities. If you're going to lose either way, then why bother?

[Rancidlunchmeat]

I'm not the world's most accomplished Civ IV'er, but I can see you're falling into two very common mistakes that keep many people right at the Warlord level (and kept me there for a while myself).

The first is your fascination with wonders. Don't bother with them unless they have a very specific purpose. The Pyramids? Sure. The Oracle? Yep. The Great Library? Absolutely. But Stonehedge? The Parthenon? Questionable. Especially not the early ones as they are the most expensive (even stonehedge is extremely expensive if you look at it in terms of what those hammers could have bought). Especially don't attempt to build three wonders in two cities!

The second is your tech path which makes no sense to me. What are you trying to do with this tech path? Now, as I've mentioned in other posts, I haven't refined my tech path yet. The balance between techs that will provide your Civ with the economy it needs VS beelining to a particular tech to get a headstart on something over the AI is a tenous one.

Those two mistakes lead to your three problems which are the most important ones in Civ IV. 1) Lack of Expansion & Infrastructure, 2) Lack of Military, and 3) A non-significant tech edge on the AI by the mid-game.

Also.. you appear to like your religions so I imagine you are making another mistake. Adopting an early state religion. Why do it? All it will do is alienate a trading partner. Found the religion all you want. Found the shrine if possible. Spread the religion all you want. But the religion will spread to your cities on its own, it will spread to neighboring cities on its own, and you will collect money from the shrine through the spread of religion regardless of whether or not it's your state religion.

The only reason to adopt a state religion is if you need the happiness bonus, and you might.. because your cities are becoming overpopulated because they're building wonders instead of settlers or workers.

You shouldn't have any early game happiness problems.. especially not on Warlord where you get a free bonus.

Swiss Pauli mentioned one of Vel's strategy guides and there's a tech path from it that really works wonders. (HA! pun!) It's intended to make use of the CS Slingshot, and it was written before the chop nerf.. But it still works great.

It was one of his Devel's Workshops, and by 60AD you can easily have four cities, the Oracle, the Great Library, an Academy, and the religious shrine.

Note that the strat also takes advantage of GPP specialization, so you essentially have your capitol that has a library (needed for GPP for the GS to build an academy), an academy, and eventually the Great Library, a second city that is probably your Copper resource, and has the Oracle, a temple, and the religious shrine in it. And then you also have 'extra' cities that aren't focused on GPP production and won't be because they'll be too far behind the curve.. especially once your capitol builds the GL.

Search for 'Devel's Workshop' either on here or even in Google. I think the one I'm referring to is the second one.

You might also want to consider that by the time you have enough infrastructre to have a city pumping out axemen (and probably two other cities building other things), that you'll want to use that production to take out your closest neighbor. Don't worry about getting them angry. They'll all get over it eventually.

Well.. actually, they'll all die eventually. It's either them or you.

[padillah]

Wow! Thanks for that. See, this is some of what I mean, specific stuff I could change or do better on.

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
The first is your fascination with wonders. Don't bother with them unless they have a very specific purpose. The Pyramids? Sure. The Oracle? Yep. The Great Library? Absolutely. But Stonehedge? The Parthenon? Questionable. Especially not the early ones as they are the most expensive (even stonehedge is extremely expensive if you look at it in terms of what those hammers could have bought). Especially don't attempt to build three wonders in two cities!

I see, especially after the situation that started this thread, that I build every wonder that comes along. This must stop. But I have a hard time understanding why a specific wonder is better than other wonders.

You discount Stonehenge but, since I usually run a CRE civ that's 3 free culture in every city from day one. Why is that NOT wanted?

By the same token, and this may have more to do with how poorly I play, I don't see the benefit of the Pyramids. To give me access to something I'm going to get in the course of time anyway? I never have enough money in the begining to use US, my production is not that big a deal so Bueracracy is not amazing, and I get slaveryas soon as I get BW which is in another 10 or 15 turns (actually, by the time I finish building the Pyramids I already have Slavery). So why waste time on that wonder?

The second is your tech path which makes no sense to me. What are you trying to do with this tech path?

I have no idea. I never have any idea. It's so convoluted I can't get a bead on what I'm trying to accomplish, if anything. Oddly enough, for a programmer, I suck at sitting down and working out minutea.

Also.. you appear to like your religions so I imagine you are making another mistake. Adopting an early state religion. Why do it?

Two reasons: 1) OR and 2) because I am under the impression that to get the shrine money you need that religion as your state religion.

...and you will collect money from the shrine through the spread of religion regardless of whether or not it's your state religion.

Um, oh. I didn't know that. Thanks.

Swiss Pauli mentioned one of Vel's strategy guides and there's a tech path from it that really works wonders. (HA! pun!)

I've seen Vel's strats (I helped him write one for Civ III) but I've never gotten to a point where I can use one because I never get into the situations presented there. It's always "If your Saladin and you get the Pyramids..." well, what if I miss? Now I've commited to a course that I can't continue and the guide is busy describing some other game.

You might also want to consider that by the time you have enough infrastructre to have a city pumping out axemen (and probably two other cities building other things), that you'll want to use that production to take out your closest neighbor.

Wars terrify me. I started a thread to try and find out how big an army is supposed to be and I can't get a good answer. For some bizzare reason every time I start a war, even if I'm stronger militarily, I manage to attack the only city with all the enemy units in it.

I'm going to start a thread right now seeking advice about a game I'm going to start tonight. I'll post the start, and every 20 turns or so. At least for a little while.

Tom P.

*Edit: Changed SPR to CRE. sorry.

[rrs_racer]

You discount Stonehenge but, since I usually run a SPR civ that's 3 free culture in every city from day one. Why is that NOT wanted?

(Assuming you mean Creative, not Spiritual - unless I'm missing something) - flipping that question around, why IS it wanted? It doesn't really give you any cast-iron benefits, other than to increase base culture per turn from 2 to 3. That's 1 fewer turn you have to wait for the borders to expand in a city. Slightly better borders if you're bordering someone closely (not all that likely in the early game anyway). Not a massive deal....and as rancidlunchmeat said, considering how early you have to build it, and what else you could build for the same cost, it's not usually worth it.

IMO, culture is not generally something that's all that important for your core cities in Civ4. For your borders it's very important, as it might mean the difference between getting a resource and not - and it goes without saying that it's important if you're going for a victory - but otherwise, it's really not all that useful.

By the same token, and this may have more to do with how poorly I play, I don't see the benefit of the Pyramids. To give me access to something I'm going to get in the course of time anyway? I never have enough money in the begining to use US, my production is not that big a deal so Bueracracy is not amazing, and I get slaveryas soon as I get BW which is in another 10 or 15 turns (actually, by the time I finish building the Pyramids I already have Slavery). So why waste time on that wonder?

I kind of like the Pyramids because it gives you greater flexibility in the early game. It allows you to run some quite specialized strategy with much greater effectiveness - specialist-heavy (Representation, with a nice happiness kick for ALL your cities early on) or commerce-heavy (US - but only in the mid-game). However, due to its cost I'll only build it if it's relatively easy for me to do so - i.e. I have stone and I have a very productive city kicking its heels doing nothing.

[padillah]

Originally posted by rrs_racer


(Assuming you mean Creative, not Spiritual - unless I'm missing something)

You got there before I could correct myself. I was posting the other thread Italked about and it dawned on me, it's CRE not SPR.

IMO, culture is not generally something that's all that important for your core cities in Civ4. For your borders it's very important, as it might mean the difference between getting a resource and not - and it goes without saying that it's important if you're going for a victory - but otherwise, it's really not all that useful.

See, I'm a culture hog. I will build everything that has to do with culture. I've never won a culture victory (I've never won any victory) but I get cities flipping left and right by mid game. Am I wrong to try for a higher culture? Is that my big misstep?

I kind of like the Pyramids because it gives you greater flexibility in the early game. It allows you to run some quite specialized strategy with much greater effectiveness...

I think thast's my problem with it, I don't have the general strategy under control.

Good explanations, thanks for those. Please take a look at the thread I started to help with my specific game, I'm sure you will be a big help there.

Thanks,
Tom P.