Caravel: no room for settlers

[HaplessHorde]

Originally posted by Solver
The idea is to be unable to colonize overseas until Astronomy.

Again, see Polynesia. But the game has a lot of this type of asynchrony between tech or civil developments and when they should actually be available based on human history.

Maybe we shouldn't be expecting that degree of realism, but in a game that uses real human leaders and specific wonders, religions, etc., it's hard to set that expectation aside.

[johnmcd]

I've said it before, but I think starting location and direction of settlement should have a say in how you research and get technologies.

A civ without a hill in its borders should find mining very expensive to research and a civ with all its cities on the coast should get cheaper sea tech.

I would even like to see unique bonuses for civs in particular sorts of location or that develop in particular sorts of ways.

The biggest hole in the game just now though is the way trade and exploration are left as two seperate things when they should be inextricably bound.

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by Yosho
Well, it's good that it's possible to have missionaries/scouts/explorers/great merchants explore most of the world long before it's possible to really plant large colonies a great distance from your homeland do so in large numbers (Think Marco Polo, for example.) The ships are pretty much just abstractions for how that works.

Well there is a precedent in our world's history--it was fully a century from when most European nations first knew about America (1490s) until the first real permanant colonies (1600s Jamestown) During that time, only a few explorers spent much time on the mainland.

[Nikolai]

The Spanish sure got a huge overseas empire long before Jamestown. Sure they did conquer a bit, but they filled the land they got from the Aztecs et al with settlers.

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by Nikolai
they filled the land they got from the Aztecs et al with settlers.

Which cities are those?

[eris]

People mention Polynesia when discussing this subject. I think they have a point. I always envisioned the expansion pack having Polynesia with a UU that was a caravel that carried settlers. I envisioned Vikings as having galleys that crossed oceans. Perhaps it would all fit under a trait for seafaring.

[solo]

If your cultural borders happen to expand in the right direction, galleys might be able to cross an "ocean" with a settler and start a colony on a nearby continent or island. An early Great Artist might facilitate this, too.

[stevesk]

Well, when I speaked about America, I didn't mean United States of America. Brazil has began its colonization very early, just like another spanish countries had. USA colonization, if I am not wrong, really began in the 17th centaury. But not the same happened with other countries from America.

[Harrier UK]

Caravells are small ships that can enter other AI's territory. (Without open borders - therefore spy ships). They can carry small loads such as missionaries, explorers etc.

They are not large enough to carry settlers, with all the inherant extra infrastructure. Pots/pans, building tools. food stuffs etc. etc.

To mimic history, you need to build Galleons to transport settlers.

[HaplessHorde]

Originally posted by Harrier UK
Caravells are small ships that can enter other AI's territory. (Without open borders - therefore spy ships). They can carry small loads such as missionaries, explorers etc.

They are not large enough to carry settlers, with all the inherant extra infrastructure. Pots/pans, building tools. food stuffs etc. etc.

To mimic history, you need to build Galleons to transport settlers.

If I can fit a settler on a galley, I can fit one on a caravel; that's the issue. Polynesian and Viking cultures are the prime examples of what can be done with a very small craft, there are probably others. Sure it's dicey, and you might fail more than %50 of the time, but I think it should be an available option.

Anyone here read Jared Diamond's "Collapse," out of curiousity? He's got some interesting chapters on this stuff.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Solver
The idea is to be unable to colonize overseas until Astronomy.

Sometimes you could do so with galleys.

That's a requirement if you use the archipelago map. Otherwise you'll be far behind.

[Gherald]

Erm, you can't go overseas with galleys unless it is just 1 ocean square and you have culture on it.

That's a pretty uncommon situation, though I suppose it might happen more often on Archipelago.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Gherald
Erm, you can't go overseas with galleys unless it is just 1 ocean square and you have culture on it.

That's a pretty uncommon situation, though I suppose it might happen more often on Archipelago.

You can move 1 tile out, or in the cultural influence of friendly civs. This includes those whom you have Open Border agreements.

I agree it's uncommon, but you need to take advantage of every single opportunity.

[johnmcd]

To my mind you can stick a settler in a galley because it is representative of travel on the coast. If galleys can get somewhere so can all the little boats of your people, and they have a protected sea route.

Caravels though are not representative of all the little boats, caravels can cross oceans but the little boats cannot. That's why you need large capacity ocean going boats because they are literally carrying the settlers where the galleys are not.

That's how I read the abstraction anyway. It's good game balance, but I do wish the barbarians would found more and more cities.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by HaplessHorde
Again, see Polynesia.

They hopped over the islands by use of their cultural borders.