'Nationhood' needs an upgrade

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Yeah, but how often is it that all you have are towns and there's nothing you need to grow?

Once again it depends on play style, but I generally have those cottages laid down very early and they are fully grown by the time I discover Democracy. At that stage in the game, I'm generally thinking about increasing production - lumber mills, water mills, railways, and so on.

But you may be right. There may be an undernourished runt of a city somewhere in your Empire. Perhaps one that has only recently come into your possession. OK, it would benefit from faster growth of villages, etc. But such a city is likely to be short of a lot of other things - libraries, temples, aqueducts, harbours, markets, and so on. I don't think I'd want to switch to emancipation just to get its villages growing a bit faster.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by Gherald

For my purposes, Bureaucracy is already way more powerful than Vassalage. I will often switch in 1950 BC and stay there the entire game.

Theocracy makes Vassalage almost useless until Pentagon (and even then, only useful for a large empire during serious wartime).

Nope. If I use both Theocracy AND Vassalage, then my units start with eight XP, which makes them one victory away from their third promotion. If I can get the Pentagon, then my units start with TEN XP, and THREE promotions right from the start. A unit with the City Garrison III promotion gets nearly doubled defense from promotions, while a unit with City Assault III gets nearly doubled attack against cities from its promotions.

[Gherald]

8 exp is nowhere near as worthwhile as 6 exp (actually 5 exp but there is no option for that) or 10 exp.

We all know Bureaucracy is far superior during peacetime or smaller wars. That's a given. But the reason 8 exp with Vassalage isn't so useful even in larger wars is because in any fair fight a high percentage of those units are going to die before they ever have a chance at their first victory. That extra +2 exp was essentially meaningless to them. I'd much rather stay in Bureaucracy and use it for a tech/wonder lead while I fight.

As I pointed out, Vassalage may be useful with Pentagon and Theocracy in a large empire during serious wartime. But before that it sucks real bad for my purposes.

EDIT: I just thought of this, but gamespeed might have something to do with it. I could see 8 exp being more useful on Epic or Marathon, because your units stay useful for more move turns. But I usually play on Quick or Normal, because that's what multiplayer games use (mostly Quick).

[Yosho]

Yeah, it's best to use either vassalege OR theocracy, not both. Generally theocracy + bureaucracy or theocracy+nationalism is best for a war-time economy, although I imagine thare are situations where vassalage+org religion or vassalage+free religion might be better.

[Gherald]

although I imagine thare are situations where vassalage+org religion

eeeww! Even with an Org civ the upkeep would suck and kill your science.

or vassalage+free religion might be better.

Perhaps if you don't have a religion, or can't afford to have one for diplomatic reasons? I could see spending time under those civics as a Spi civ, but not as any other because I would want to switch out ASAP.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Gherald
Perhaps if you don't have a religion, or can't afford to have one for diplomatic reasons? I could see spending time under those civics as a Spi civ, but not as any other because I would want to switch out ASAP.

If you've got a fairly large empire with several good cities, instead of one completly focued on a super-capital, you can make more money under vassalage+free religion then you could under theocracy+beaurocracy, with the +10% science bonus to everything instead of the +50% commerce bonus to your capital, and the 10 free units from vassalage helps too. Combine that with the happiness bonus from free religion (especally useful if you're in a long war) and vassalage+free religion might be a better combination in a lot of situations.

[Gherald]

No, because Theocracy is cheaper and hence better than Vassalage, even with the units. (What balances it is the fact that you need a single religion spread across your empire)

In an empire with a homogenous religion, Free Religion is almost useless for just the +10% science. It's really not that much of a bonus! If I don't need Theocracy, I'd much rather run Pacifism! (And indeed, I almost always switch to Pacifism soon after Pentagon. That always gives me a chuckle..)

Pretty much the only reason I ever choose Free Religion over Theocracy/Pacifism is for diplomatic reasons, or in the very late game during space race (if I'm also switching between universal and representation, otherwise it's not worth the anarchy)

[Gherald]

Originally posted by Ijuin
Nationhood: Raised happiness bonus for Barracks from +2 to +4

That seems a little extreme... how about making it No Upkeep instead? That would more reasonably make it a stronger alternative to Bureaucracy, and offer more fluidity ... because, I could see my civ quickly becoming "addicted" to that +4 happiness, and never being able to switch out because it would cause at least two angry citizens in nearly EVERY city with a rax, thus pretty much guaranteeing that any switch out of Nationalism would have to include a switch into Slavery.

[Ned]

I agree. I tried the civic once and found that its main drawback was the loss of population caused by the draft. If that problem was fixed, the draft would actually be workable. Think of the productivity of a city with the Globe Theater that could produce one unit per turn and no increase to unhappiness.

[Gherald]

Originally posted by Ned
I agree. I tried the civic once and found that its main drawback was the loss of population caused by the draft. If that problem was fixed, the draft would actually be workable. Think of the productivity of a city with the Globe Theater that could produce one unit per turn and no increase to unhappiness.

I don't think anyone is suggesting getting rid of the population loss. That's kind of the point.

[Yosho]

Yeah, if you could draft forever with no population loss, a civ with 3 cities using nationhood could produce more units then a civ with 15 cities without it, with no real long-term cost. It'd be totally, absurdly, insanely overpowered.

[Strategist83]

So, does anybody use nationhood in the long term? This is what I was initially going at: Making nationhood a viable long-term civic solution rather than a 'wartime only' civic.

[Gherald]

Originally posted by Strategist83
So, does anybody use nationhood in the long term? This is what I was initially going at: Making nationhood a viable long-term civic solution rather than a 'wartime only' civic.

Other than No Upkeep, I can't think of a reasonable way to do this.

+50% national wonder production might be good too, just for the heck of it.

But Police State and Theocracy are pretty much also 'wartime only' civics, so it's obviously okay to have them... but as things stand if I need to switch to nationalism it's only for survival and at that point the game is probably already lost.

[Strategist83]

Would anybody else like nationhood to be more than a "when the game is probably already lost" civic? Oh come on! The government civics get still more powerful as the game progresses. So does the legal, labour and economic civics (at the very least). Why should the legal branch's 'nationhood' be a pathetic 'I give up' civic?

[marvinkosh]

It would make sense to stick with Nationhood if there was also a small improvement to unit production speed which could be stacked with the bonus from Police State. Even ten percent would give you more of a fighting chance.